Ragefire Rotation Discussion

Grats on your ding! How long now? 2-3 days?

Well, we're on Page 14 now and the personal attacks are beginning.

Can we get back on track?

I noticed that the 7/28 proposal has been ninja-edited and now includes CT and Vox as Gatekeepers. What's up with that?

I'm not sure why a proposal was accepted that had no clear cut method for amendment but hopefully it's clear that this is one more reason the Apok/RoE proposal is insufficient.

Another issue I have with how RoE/Apok are touting their proposal is their lack of willing to make concessions and compromised during negotiations, or any willingness to be swayed by the majority.

TL did originally take the same stance, but as you can see in the logs we didn't try to make any demands the participating guilds, and trust me there are many things in the linked proposal we could have asked for that would have benefited us. For instance we have historically requested 1 hour windows, but did not try to strongarm the summit from 3. It would have also been nice to have at least one FFA primetime slot - there are none.

I know Apok, RoE, and probably others will look at those kinds of requests and say "That's totally unreasonable!"

Yes, and? We didn't come to the table demanding those rules. We didn't come to the table demanding anything at all, short of demanding that interested guilds actually have a voice and a vote.

In that regard we got what we wanted. I don't know why Apok and RoE don't want these guilds to have a voice or a vote, but that's a serious question which needs to be answered.

Please request more of your guild in TS to rush to the forum to quote me. Past 10 posts TL.

...is that directed at me...? I'm out of state right now, haven't been in TS in 24 hours I'm literally posting from a gas station in Middle-of-Nowhere, NV.

I enjoy reading forums and in spite of all the garbage posted around here there really is good discussion which occurs and frequently I leave these threads with things to give consideration to.

Do you think TL guildchat revolves around you? Or perhaps the outlandish things you post here attracts attention to yourself and people just jump on the bandwagon to reply to you.. Jain hasnt told anyone to do anything. We all just have plenty of free time with these rotations to sit and eat popcorn waiting for your every post.. waiting...waiting..

we lurk, we are anonymous users.

It's a pity you guys have to behave like this. It seemed to be going so much better.

Tl, Apok, over all you guys are pretty much morons across the board save for a few examples of actual personality.

How are you guys not ashamed of this?

meh. im back and forth. youve seen me post some pretty reasonable stuff. only the silly name calling and derogatory stuff seems to get any notice from the other side of the table tho so i have some fun with it from time to time.

When you have 30 TL people active on this forum & maybe 5 from the rest of the raiding community, you end up with a conversation that always favors TL. No matter how much you point out that is wrong with their actions or statements, the 30 people will always twist things around.

With that said, I didn't read the entire log.. I read the first 100 lines and it sounded pretty constructive to be honest. Then I came here and started reading through the first few pages and sure enough people are stating that TL gets multiple of their guilds into the rotation which gives them twice as much loot as anyone else. As well as 50% or greater of the kills..

If this was allowed by the other guilds, you guys deserve to loose out, maybe you should read the art of the deal by donald trump next time. Sounds like they screwed you in the deal and you let them screw you. Am I surprised? When you have 80 people trying to screw you 24/7 odds are it's going to happen eventually I guess

Actually i am surprised and glad to see that it seems that TL is turning around their rep here. now I may not trust it but it is a welcome rep.

1) question: why only the initial group in this rotation? why did a guild get put in there that had not even killed a gatekeeper.
2) question: why is it that when MORE people are involved something better comes out of it seemingly? (that I can answer because the input is greater so a better solution can be obtained).
3) why in the original agreement did two of the four guilds deny they agreed to the rotation and yet it requires 2/3rds (really 3/4ths) to change something and that leaves APOK and ROE the deciding vote to change things and thus they can keep it as is without a change.
4) Why are there instances of things being changed without notice or even being voted upon?


These are but some of the questions *I* have. I want to say there is a lot of backdoor politics going on in the first one than what I see in this new idea. perhaps we should let the WHOLE server vote. let us see what happens (that will not happen I know) but it seems more people favor this one than the last one.

Why not? Pre-revamp we had, discounting the EoV thing I'd already addressed, the same exact number of Vox/Naggy/Inny/CT kills that RoE had.

0

So....as I also said earlier, I congratulated you guys on your zerg kills of Inny, Vox, and Naggy.

But telling me to "sit down" when before the initial rotation you guys had killed the same as RoP and a ton of other guilds, well...I don't think much else needs to be said.

Oh, and I forgot to answer your initial question.

Actually, we were looking at going to LJ because OF the rotation they had setup. We had actually talked with the leadership of AD to find out how they worked it, etc, etc. Because our goal was to recruit/level more up, etc, and would liked to have been able to get a chance at mobs. We were willing to sacrifice short term gains (i.e. Kunark) for a chance at other things...

And actually, too - it was more along the lines of Apok than TL - mainly because of the "we don't give a crap about anyone" attitude of Apok's pullers/officers in Hate and Fear.

However, the day after we met with AD, DB came out and said they would be enforcing rotations on both servers. And with that announcement, we talked within the guild, and decided to stay because we'd get both a rotation we could eventually join AND Kunark.

Again, apologies for not addressing that in my initial reply.

M

Marth, what you're bringing up here is really what I think has brought all this to a head. We put in 24/7 hours to become the guild that we've become. I'm not saying that entitles us to anything, but hopefully others can at least see our perspective when I say we have similar expectations of a guild which wants to place itself on the same level we believe we're playing on.

There is another level of play on this server, a more casual level, where many guilds wish to see this content but do not want to have to worry about mobs spawning during the middle of the day or middle of the night. For the most part these players are only available during primetime - this is the only time period they have available to raid.

On Friday night a discussion took place which took these two levels of play into account and an agreement was proposed which allow for both. It allows 24/7 guilds to compete on one level and primetime guilds to rotate on a different level.

The previous proposal largely favors only two guilds, two guilds which seem to be operating on some in-between level. They want to look up to us and say "We cannot compete with your mobilization, please come down to our level and rotate" but at the same time they want to look down on these other guilds and say "You must step up your game and become a 24/7 guild if you wish to see content."

I think between the above and the way they dishonestly brought their proposal, they have gotten caught with their hand in the cookie jar. I have no issues with them eating cookies. My issue is that they need to decide if they are a top tier guild or a second tier guild.

It is like the old saying that when you are driving, everyone who is driving slower than you is an idiot, and everyone who is driving faster is a maniac. It's a funny proverb but not a good way to build a rotation.

(Also you shouldn't ninja edit the rotation rules.)

I love how absolutely demolished constellation got in this thread.

Also, Fulkjoo is an officer of Apok? I've seen more homophobic stuff come out of that kid's ooc than a weekend of Call of Duty on Xbox360. Has anyone on this server NOT been trained by this guy?

1. The guilds, towards the end of the chat log, ratify a list of people who should be on the initial rotation - that too was a community decision.

2. It's silly to assume that raiding on the server is 90% TL because we got 90%+ of kills. It also, obviously, does not include just TL, Apok, RoE, and Rosengard. It includes about any guild capable/interested in fielding a raid force capable of taking down the buffed raid bosses. The conversation should have always included them - I'm pretty sure DBG didn't intend for a rotation to only include select groups - casual raiders should have always had a voice. Now they do. But yes, better things come out - in fact, most of those casual raid guild leadership types have been hardcore at some point, they're pretty knowledgeable people.

3. Actually, there was no mechanic for who decides rules. One would assume it would be majority, but as it goes, it's been Apok+Roe just making changes at whim and editing the spreadsheet. Not well thought out, and more than a bit juvenile.

4. Good question. The Apok+RoE approved rotation that was thrust on the entire server was just ill-conceived. Everyone has a seat at the table now, and hopefully we'll enter a new era on the server. Frankly the pre-rotation TL-era one wasn't a good one (and people can confirm that I'm not hypocritical saying this), the Apok+RoE rotation isn't a good one, but hopefully a new raiding-community one will be better. Or at least less flawed. Democracy - the worst form of government....except for all the others.

I pull for Apok in the planes a lot and I think the low amount of mobs to go around really causes some bad attitudes, but I never touch a mob targeting someone not in our raid, and when people do pull off other raids they are generally scolded in TS by a large amount of people.

We try very hard not to step on anyone's toes when it comes to trash mobs, but I think the cramped conditions on this server tends to put everyone on edge.

I'm no longer there and i'm the one that made the thread.

I made that thread and I am no longer a member of RoE, I left just before any of this dumb rotations stuff started.

so the integrity left with you? ;p

I'd like to thank Archy for his amazing work on formating the spreadsheet, it looks much cleaner man. You do good work.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgzgwIdP1qxhdHJCZnhfbE9XNW9EVHRycmdMNVZDcUE#gid=13

Also appears 8 out of the 10 guilds have officially signed off on it.

http://www.ragefireforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=341&sid=625ba26481fac6e0c37f76bd23b480f3

Here's looking to a brighter Ragefire future.