Incorrect Sojero, just as you applied your math/example of Marrs to wizard aggro generation and it simply didn't operate remotely how you thought/perceived it did, it doesn't apply to magi's how you perceive it does(if you believe it's remotely as helpful as if the Pal had voice instead, which you are stating it is with no math out loud this time). I wanted opinions and you gave yours which I appreciate, it made me more sure than I already was. This has turned into another thread with ''well you can find out the secret true value of marrs by intricately breaking down what it does for magi's over time!! Then you'll see value of optimizing your marrs and it comes out to be same as Voice!''. No, it does not. A real wizard, casting real etherals, is big stuff. That's why you used that as your first example of how marrs could surpass the relevancy of a 72% aggro mod boost to a tank. Which helps a shadows aggro, while grouped, with real wizards. Your claiming there are all these scenarios where marrs is equal, yet the only one you listed with real data to back up proved yourself wrong.
my suggestion was to have it work similar to Unbroken Affirmation series. Without the aggro lock http://spells.eqresource.com/spells.php?id=34433 So what that would do is, Any action performed by any character other then the Caster, reduce the aggro that generates. Have it have a short duration 12s or so? It would be an entirely diffferent ability. Basically Lets say an SK has a 10000 hate ability. When this is on the mob it lands for 8000. However our aggro abilities would be unchanged. (Could even add a slight boost, but at that point it would be unnecessary). I am assuming this would be the way to go for suggestions, because they "want to make aggro a resource", and i am guessing that is why Eli didn't want to give us Group Marr's.
Sojero, I'm not sure what you mean by enlighten rest of class as to how it works then. If your referring to enlighten actual paladins, I don't think theres any need. Raven gave one excellent suggestion, which would be make it something casted on a mob that lowers all others aggro around us for that mob. That would make it very competitive and I think that would be a pretty efficient alternative all would agree upon. Also, it would take nothing away from any one else or damage aggro balance amongst any body else. I like that idea a lot actually, especially if it's devs intentions to make aggro more relevant again, which was stated awhile ago. If marrs were changed into a group buff and most in raid were running around with it and then tanks running around with 72% aggro boost from SK's, then whatever challenge to anyone pertaining to aggro has been thrown out window.
I view the whole problem as a lack of class vision and understanding by the Development team. Taking a quick fix to agro with Voice for SK instead of going in and changing the base numbers in their spells to proper levels was just lazy. What's the point of an agro mask with Worn Effect: Echo of Anger V 1: Increase Hate Generated by 25% we are seemingly saying this might as well be thrown out because it no longer provides the effect it should. Many are upset about SK having voice because it is a 72% mod on all forms of agro. Yes it can be cast on others but doesn't always happen. Add in some SK spells were made insta cast with 6 sec refresh and you can start to see where friction develops. Take Terror of Narus as the example 7827 base agro becomes about a 13.4k agro bomb using Voice every 6 sec and castable while running when Paladins have to be standing still to cast their agro spells. I'm on the side that believes Voice is over powered as it is because it modifies all the Shadowknight's agro from swings, runes, DoT, DD and so on and not just spells in the add hate category. If the class was or is lacking in agro spells some should have been provided or current ones adjusted to give them enough options to use for single target and AE.
I don't think developers giving Shadowknights a 72% aggro mod was laziness on their part. I think they wanted to give them a relevant buff that could be used on others. It is a very relevant buff that can be used on other tanks, including themselves. SK's can continue to pretend it is or isn't. The problem is, giving them that, then giving them improved hate on spells AND making them instant, only solidified one of their raid roles which is equipping aged left eye of xygoz and running circles/playing nascar. As they can get solid aggro, even while doing that with little to no challenge. And hey, if they want to continue being King/Queen at that role/niche, more power to them. My concern for paladins, is we're at the bottom of the pack for single target aggro generation by large margin, which has never been the case in any era of EQ till recently. Add that to our lack of AE aggro generation abilities which devs have stated is on purpose and I have to agree with Warpeace that there may be a lack of vision or understanding/disconnect for the paladin class. I fail to believe it's intentional on the Dev's end for paladins to be 3rd in single target and AE aggro generation by such extreme margins. Making marrs salvation something placed on mobs would most likely solve quite a bit of issues or all of them depending upon how they chose to implement. Hopefully devs agree with that idea as I have no better ones to throw on table.
Paladin have always been last for AE agro and I'm not looking for that to change, it doesn't need to. It would be nice to have beacon bumped up a bit more. We need tools for those now and then occasions and was why we received Beacon. We asked for AE stun and told it would be over powered. The right thing to do would have been properly increase the hate on SK spells and avoided the whole VoT issue to start. Maybe keep VoT as a SK only buff so they could better lock the mob they were tanking, but a flat 72% that affects all agro they generate from everything is a bit much. That's the reason VoT becomes such an issue is everything it affects. Saying someone can cast a buff on others is one thing having it done is another. Depending on how many SK there are they can be busy tanking, kiting or something else and not available to give VoT. They are a tank and not a buff bot.
Paladins are tanks as well. That doesn't prevent me from casting brells, first spire, group armor or marrs salvation on raids. Or knowing when or if to put them back on/ telling another paladin to do so. Sometimes, I'll even cast a symbol or cert line myself! All the while keeping up with appropriate time to splash and throwing in some rezzes. Oh, healing others too while doing that. I do that without crying buff bot once. SK's want utility, they can handle keeping up with a single buff of that duration on a couple of folks if they choose to. Or they can be lazy and say no one ever asks for it, therefore a 72% aggro mod boost does nothing for anyone but myself.
In regards to the 72% aggro mod or single target 20% de-aggro mod I believe it is based on the situation. My reasoning for this is due to my experiences as an enchanter having access to the following single target 70% aggro mod single target 70% De-aggro mod aura 10-12% aggro mod aura 10-12%De-aggro mod Now i don't use these on a daily, or even weekly basis (the auras I've used once i think), but i have tested the single target on various casters and melee on more than one occasion. In short -if you are going to single/duo tank 1-3 mobs for an extended period of time the aggro mod is decent but doesn't make that big of an effect as the affected player still has to fight for aggro, though they have an easier time doing so. -if you have a few outlying players that are continually over aggro and pulling aggro then the de-aggro mod helps IMMENSELY. This was most prevalent in WK 1 on a few shamans who tend to die every wave. with the de-aggro buff on them they lived for as long as the buff was active (it lasts like 1 min) then promptly died after it wore off mid wave. Though i don't have numbers to back this up so take it with a gain of salt
profound vision is described as - Increases the effectiveness of Horrifying Visage and Glamorous Visage by 10% per rank. that to me indicates that each rank adds 10% more aggro (creation/negation) to the base 10%. as the Base is 10% effective, adding 10% makes it 20% effective etc. I could be wrong on this but the impact of casting them with rank 6 profound vision still remains the same, and only further strengthens the effect of the 20% de-aggro spell in question.
To the OP: I would prefer VoT over Marr's Salvation just for the PITA relief. Even if they provided identical results, which they don't, it's much easier to deal with a buff you cast on yourself than one that you cast on others. Marr's Salvation is a pain to keep up on a continual rotation of people in a raid and merely annoying in a group setting. It's even worse if you're not using triggers to let you know that it wore off of people. I feel bad for anyone that isn't doing that. On top of that, you have to deal with the deaths of others screwing up your triggers and re-applying it all of the time versus just managing the buff on yourself. In my opinion, Voice of Thule is better than Marr's Salvation.
VoT is in practice a stronger buff in most situations, not sure anyone would question that or why we needed an "opinion poll" on the subject, but ok. Also for the record, pretty sure that every single sk who posts on these boards would agree they went overboard on VoT. It's out of whack to a point that balance between the knight classes hate wise is pretty much impossible, which is a bad thing overall. I'd rather the holmein recourse remain the best self aggro mod, and VoT be lowered to be slightly inferior to it but primarily intended to be cast on others in raids. Also lets be real here: Paladins don't need a ton of love in the raid setting. Just like sks don't particularly need much help in the group setting.
Interesting on the profound vision Random_Enc, thanks for sharing. I like hearing stuff like that. I can see why an enc would rarely use all those things but can definitely agree where it would be immensely useful in some situations. Kleitus, I agree 110%, nice small summary. Sheex, your fellow SK apparently don't all agree VoT is better than Marrs. If you ever read your class forums, at evilgamer, it is more apparent. There is a thread titled ''Marr's Salvation'' over there. Many of those being SK's whom post on these forums. I wanted the opinion of the community in general on topic and got some pretty constructive ones. Also, I have not seen a single paladin, anywhere, on any board or thread say we need a ''ton'' of raid love. One of the areas we could use love on, in raid and group game, is in one of the fundamental areas of tanking. Aggro. Marrs being switched to a more constructive tool I feel would solve that. The best solution I've seen for that is Marrs being changed to something that is placed on mob. I agree with that, hopefully others and the devs do as well. VoT is in the game now and I'm not asking/wanting changes to that. There was a time I did, which was when it was first implemented. I'm not a fan of things that have been in game for lengths of time being nuked. That just tends not to sit well with many folks.
