Necro DOT Revamp!

dot revamps are not classic.

change my mind.

And your point (besides being a troll) is? The number of things that "are not classic" in the current game are likely larger then the list of things that have remained "true to classic".

Lets start with any client that doesn't look like this:


Honestly, if you want as true to classic as possible, goto p1999 and run the above UI. Nothing about these TLP's is classic. Just era appropriate. There is a world of difference there.

Hmm.

What if necro dot revamp didn't hit until the OoW expac? Level 66+ necro spells get revamped and block the majority of the prior dots as per the rest of the dot revamp. Does that fix the debuff on raid issue soon enough, and leave them a "simple" enough situation to make sure a live server necro can still solo/group/raid efficiently? [It would stop the necro dot revamp super-powering a few NPCs in old content...]

I pick/guess OoW as that is the gateway into the modern game imo, and kind of a key line in progression population history (the people that care about nostalgia are mostly already gone by that era).

Coalescing two DOT lines into one line every 5 to 10 levels (from level 50 to level 110) should be easy to do and balance.

Fix one DOT at a time. Introduce one coalescence of DOTs every month at the game update. This "aim small, miss small" philosophy makes any implementation error non-game-breaking and easy to tweak the following month.

To do this, they would need to start by defining the desired end state (number and type of DOTs, target DPS, and how that DPS is spread over the DOTs). Has this been done?

Heres your status update. ... daybreak just laid off 70 workers, expansion launched. ... so yeah the necros thing wasnt up there on the list.

Dot revamp is like patheon, a myth.

How do you give a necro a rez, feign death, snare, and life tap, and also give them the effectual regular dps of a wiz or mage?

This is the dev's conundrum.

How do you launch a progression server thats supposed to be classic, but leave in focus, potions, innate aa's etc? That's what I mean by dot revamp not classic. Even prathun said they were looking into removing focuses for next TLP, they want to shift closer to classic.

Yeah but god that original UI no thanks. I think corpse runs would bring back a lot of the fun in TLP, and make it feel more classic as well. Sleeper/Combine was a great reminder of classic.

The conundrum is also not making necro playable on raids and breaking the class completely for group and solo content (very easy to see soloing issues if the mana cost of resists/fizzles reduces overall efficiency). Really big dots doesn't improve the necro in the current burst/spank game..

They're not going to put spells back on 4 level brackets, medding in front of the book, etc.. Not all of classic or even pre OoW design was great. Give me refined progression any day over pure classic.

I wouldn't hold my breath of focus effects being removed, and I still think consolidating all the rank 1-2-3 to be rank 3 and era-set to not work until Luclin is a better way. Prathun's quote was very clear that it was a big thing they were unlikely to get to (at least in my reading of it) though maybe the consolidation compromise is less work so more doable.

Corpse runs still exist in the game. Step 1 = die. Step 2 = put all your gear in your bags. Step 3 = run naked back to your body and click on it. Step 4 = re-equip your gear. There, you had the fun of corpse running, leave the rest of us alone please (we don't want them forced on us, complete waste of playtime).

I don't believe Prathun actually said that. What he said is that they would need to remove focus effects, among other things, before they adjusted melee dps downward. That doesn't necessarily imply they are actually planning to do it.

A few things...

DoT consolidation is to avoid reaching the maximum debuff limit of a mob and to reduce the the need to battle memorize so many sets just to compete on dps. Needing to battle mem spell sets is a hindrance of the class. Less is more. I have seen the debuff limit hit on Phini in SoF.

They have already consolidated multiple other classes. That can't be any more difficult than consolidating the necromancer. So what really is the reason they haven't already taken care of this?

Don't pigeon hole TLP servers into topics only concerning "classic" content

Necromancers only have 2 or 3 lines of each class of DoTs? I do not see why it would be difficult to consolidate like they did the shamans. That would roughly equal 12-14 distinct DoTs. No need to mess with timers or anything. Just a simple consolidation.

I'm level 51 aka a nobody that is nothing...

I have poison line with the revamped envenomed bolt (more on that later)
Disease line with straight damage line and the Asystole debuff/damage version
Magic I have snare line, splurt line, undead line
Fire line is bread and butter thanks to -resist mod and good damage
Haven't got to corruption/chromatic dots stuff and other lines (i.e., kill plants!) yet. I don't have the skullcap clicky or epic 1.0 clicky (matters on early progression --other clickies in later game).

I have numerous other debuff-slot taking abilities (at 51). Nuke lines are slowish cast highish mana, lifetaps are not mana efficient. Various taps and drains take up debuff slots...

Soloing... envenomed bolt (the revamped dot) hits like a truck, it is awesome... I can use it and snare and barely bother with a dot rotation. As long as it doesn't fizzle or resist... then it drops my mana pool like crazy. Right now, EB gets resisted I roll a longer rotation of fire dots until I can get scent of dusk (debuff) on the mob. If all my dots were high cost... my solo efficiency potentially goes way down.

Group... envenomed bolt is just more severe over-dotting with all the bursty-spank combat. Dots don't translate well to the trivalized group game (on progression) nor to the playstyle designed into content well past 75. They'd either need to make group combat more tactical (without killing XP per hour) or necros more bursty efficient which if you are doing with dots has to be shared cooldowns or we become a super overpowered class.

The point in consolidation is to remove the appeal of laying a full rotation of each line of dot down in the sense of that rotation being 30+ dots long with spell set rememming. Shared timers and longer durations could easily work to tune necros for raiding... but that could be worse for the solo and/or group game necro.

So not sure it is simple.

We need shorter timers to solve the problems we are experiencing. Longer timers would actually make it worse.

It solves

• Debuff Limit
• Battle Meming

It also has the benefit of being relatively easy to implement!

I wish everyone would get on this messaging bandwagon because frankly its the only thing thats actually likely to ever happen. Asking for a druid/shaman style revamp is a dead issue.

This is my proposal, in case it isn't clear:

Condense duration of all DoTs 1-110 by 33%
Softcap epic focus at 75

Boom, solves two birds with one stone and nerfing the epic mitigates any complaining about this being too beneficial, despite the fact that necros are not exactly topping dps right now anyways.

For the couple of spells shared with other classes, they can be left as-is or included as desired. They're basically irrelevant in the big picture.

Note that this looks alot better than it is because it is NOT a 33% damage increase. Spells will need to be refreshed 33% sooner. The only damage increase would result from being able to recast a better spell instead of stacking another worse spell which would mostly be counteracted without the 2.0 focus.

Agreed. No one should be creating memes during a raid.

Can't nerf the 2.0 without retuning all the spells because they are currently tuned around the 2.0

I'm mulling your concept. I may like it...

I see the logic in shorter duration good dots that would be the preferred set. You're not going to unmem a good dot that drops to cast a lower-damage one, you'll recast the good one --so as long as dot duration basically limits a necro to weaving 4 (maybe 5) dots this seems workable?. And yes, they can keep the mana costs as-is and just put the damage over 3 ticks instead of 6 or whatever...

I see this being good for raiding (is it enough debuff clutter clearing?)

I see this possibly helping out the necro group role (casting one dot would be like casting 3 little nukes which their might be time to actually have all land on a mob).

I see this giving the solo necro a faster burn, more med in between situation... but you aren't super-dotting so it doesn't hurt overall efficiency. I'm trying to imagine places where I have set up a continuous kite (not needed med breaks often or at all) and how this impacts that --I prefer running around to sitting.

This may cause issues with focus & AA tuned around duration.

This probably makes necro NPC easier to fight as they would have to cast and land more than the current or superdot situation so you wouldn't be as worried about cures --if you even are now (shaman dot revamp make Sebilis Frogs harder from my lowbie experience).

What am I missing or interpreting wrong of Ryak's idea?

Bump DBG

Did you miss the part about condensing spell duration by 33% at the same time?

The exact math is complicated, but the effective dps boost from condensing DoT durations globally should roughly balance out with the removal of the epic focus.

Plus the devs hate the idea of using the 2.0 at level 110 and so do I.

EDIT: To Clarify, by condensing duration i mean if a DoT does 1000 damage over 60 seconds, make it do 1000 damage over 42 seconds instead.

I think you've got the concept. Although I definitely think there's room for discussion on the concept.

I firmly believe that this is both (1) Reasonable and (2) Doable which anything that actually has a chance of happening needs to be both.

I'd even love to see a dev's perspective on this. Is the idea crazy or workable or somewhere in between?

Obviously I don't expect a commitment to do it immediately, but I feel like a discussion on this might actually lead to that eventually.

You're not factoring in that necros have a lot of ways to increase the crit damage. If you increase the base damage without changing any of the other necro burn tools you're gonna see a massive exponential increase in dot damage.

Your idea was already tried with the short term dots. Guess what happened? Every other dps cried until it was nerfed. I know, because I was there when it happened. That is why the 20+ dot rotations started to gain traction, in order to regain our lost dps.

Now the same arguments are being made why we need short term dots, but you're going to end up with the same problem. This forum is going to flood with tears if they make that change again.