Necro DoT Revamp Level 1-65 (Proposed Changes)

Sure, Envenomed Bolt is overtuned for necros in classic even though it fits perfectly into the shaman curve for Blood of Saryrn line and shamans get it at 49 while necros get it at 50. Let's take the one example where necros aren't broken, and claim they have too much DPS, and use it as an argument against finishing the DoT revamp. I've never heard anyone say shaman DPS is too high, but okay.

I'm looking at my screen right now and Envenomed bolt at 65 is hitting for MORE than Blood of Thule every tick.

Other people have provided direct quotes yet you need to start with "Translation" when quoting the DoT revamp post. Everything you have posted has ranged from completely factually incorrect to some convolution interpretation of what you think should be the truth.

I always chime in on these and only read the OP so apologies if I regurgitate anything.

Necro deeps is fine 1-65. This was only ever a debuff slot problem and one that only occurs like lvl 90 and up. Its been resolved, necros at live or good, necros at 1-65 are savages (if you struggle to parse 1-65 it is a user issue). lvl 70~90 all casters are poop so whatever.

Good luck on your dot revamp. You seem to have put a lot of effort into your argument at least. I have never mained a necro so have zero clue what where you stand overall as a class.

The point of the revamp isn't to improve their DPS. This is not the goal, and might only happen in an all out burn situation as a side effect.

The point is that every other class has consolidated DoTs and, shaman for example, does better dps for far less work. Virtually nobody wants to raid on a necro, get no chance to have any utility, and work 3x as hard, to churn out about the same DPS as a shaman on a good day.

Ideally a revamp would let them sustain the same DPS (maybe out DPS a shaman a bit for more effort), burn a little more sometimes, but generally have the option of casting a couple spells that aren't DoTs once in a while without being complete trash DPS.

The fact that every other DPS class needs to make some effort to not pull agro and a necro can literally chain cast every DoT in their spellbook without needing to worry about pulling agro is a strong indication that something is wrong here.

1. I don't agree with that at all lvl 1-65. Its not hard to manage the amount of dots needed to parse very well. Yes a necro does way more things, but necros kinda like that tbh. That's part of the class flavor people talk about.
2. as other said, watering down the rotation for a necro would make them dramatically boring to play. They work fine as is especially 1-65.
3. I dont' know what you are referring to here. A good necro will dump all his dots and FD. Thats literally all you do and removing how many dots I cast to nuke once in awhile might as well call em a warlock and make them a burst class like wizard. We'll call their nuke something original like Deathbolt.

The dev's don't need further time on this imo the class works better than it has, no class is perfect some are just not as bad as other at some times. And selfishly, the best necros you know; enjoy the fact they are better than most necros you know.

Who here is saying necros do too much dps? Maybe in classic with ebolt, but when everyone starts to even out, that issue goes away quickly.

DoT revamps are done, minus some possible tweaks/nerfs.

All I did was cut the fat and got to the point of the post. You're just too invested in wanting DoT revamps done for necros to increase DPS while losing sight at the overall goal of why they even implemented DOT revamps. That's a you problem.

You're not even using fact, you're using emotions because you want DPS increased on necros and EZ-mode turned on. You're wanted more dps for less work, but most necros LOVED the complexity of their class. At least the good, high end ones did. If the class is too hard, either practice and get better or don't play it. You're wanting revamps for a non-existent problem and piggy-backing off past revamps which were completed for a completely different reason.

Do you not understand the difference between INTENT and RESULTANT? The increased damage occurred because they were fixing another issue.

Aristo didn't state DPS for dot classes was bad so they consolidating DoTs. There are much simpler ways to increase DoT damage than a massive overhaul of the dots and consolidating them. It wouldn't make any sense to do that to simple boost dps for dot classes. It's obvious the consolidation was for another reason because boosting dps: Debuff Limits.

Problem - Debuff Limits on raids on live - "there's a limited number of debuff slots available on any given NPC, which conflicts with DoT classes wanting to layer as many spells as possible on any given NPC in order to maximize damage."
Solution - DoT Consolidation
Intent of Solution - Fix the problem (Debuff limits)
Results - Less DoTs on mob and more DPS for DoT classes. - "Other classes probably won't see the same boost in base damage that Beastlords have, since they have fewer innate boosts to DoT damage than other classes, but we expect everyone to be doing more damage, ramping that damage up faster, using more mana (though more efficiently), and using fewer debuff slots on their targets."

Aristo literally writes that BSTs were given special treatment because their DoTs were pewp. He then states other classes probably won't see those extra large boosts, but still see overall dps benefits. It's simply a RESULT of the SOLUTION they implemented.

The issue isn't them not doing 1-65 spells for necros. The issue is they should've never done a revamp in eras that the issue existed in. It just opened the floodgates for threads like this. Power creep is already bad enough, they should not have further added to the problem.

How you feel about the success of the dot revamp has literally no bearing on the topic. The devs decided to tackle an ever growing problem, developed a solution they would think would help alleviate that problem, found that the solution led to various other results (increased dps, faster ramp up time, etc), announced these changes, and implemented these changes.

The lack of comprehension is unbelievable.

-50 resist on poison and disease is not small, it is massive. The -30 on the curse line is very significant. The lack of resist mods cripples shaman dot efficiency in raids. Talking about damage per mana without factoring that in doesn't make any sense.

I agree that Scent of Terris should have a -200 mod like the Omens and later versions do.

It has been said multiple times here that an all out necro in PoP will struggle to get similar DPS to the much easier shaman DPS, which isn't even that great itself. This is mathematical fact and can be calculated from the spell data. It isn't some get good situation. I would ask the necros I know how they feel about this, but after years on Agnarr I can't recall a single necro main ever raiding. Many people came and went, most that stayed have main swapped multiple times, and no necros, while every other class has had it's day. It's possible that a few exist on the entire server but I haven't seen them. You are welcome to your opinion that the class design of necros is fine even though nobody is playing them, but you are factually incorrect claiming that this is a player issue. The reality is that there are a few delusional forum warriors that played necros and don't want to face the fact that mashing every button with zero strategy didn't make them good, or the class complex.

Ok...

This isn't a me problem. I don't main a necro. I don't plan to main a necro. I have nothing invested here beyond investigating the class out of curiosity and pointing out the obvious problems with it. Literally entering data, charting it, and curve fitting. Beyond a couple of manual tweaks that I specifically pointed out I made no personal changes into this. I don't even care what the DPS would be after the change and would be happy to see that get tuned a bit knowing that it's difficult to predict how EQ calculations and real world play would turn out. You've taken a purely data driven analysis and turned it into a personal attack on yourself because it calls into question the belief you have that necros are actually good if played correctly (when clearly that is not possible).

YOU have emotionally invested into the class and are bending over backwards with some 4D chess trying to spin dev posts to mean what you want them to mean, arguing over the intent of clear and exact quotes refuting your points. You have deluded yourself into believing things that are verifiably not true.

Shaman efficiency could definitely suffer since those as such big spenders. But a shaman is still going to run cirlces around a necro for DPS even if they get a few resists on their 3 DoTs. Especially since poison and disease are some of the easier things to land in PoP. A bit a an adjust on a couple DoTs isn't some great advantage since the necro still has to land many spells with no adjust.

The entire Scent line even getting a small adjust like -30 to help it land like Tash and Malo would go a long way though.

I don't care if they do a revamp for TLP dots or not. I called you out for taking your opinion and interpretation and claiming it was fact. All as a means to call out someone else you claimed was doing the exact same thing. Admit to yourself you did it and move on. Posting more and more about others lack of comprehension is just embarrassing yourself.

This is the problem. You are referring to a funhouse server in a particular era where casters are worse dps on raids than melee. Most experienced players know this and are ok if their favorite class isnt the best dps class every expansion. There are other games that are more inline with what you are asking for.

Also necros are fine.

No interpretation, as you can see I took the direct quotes and lined up them perfectly with what I was saying. I cut the fat off. You however omitted much of the post and manipulated it to try and show it differently.

You have missed the point again. The problem is not necro DPS and the solution isn't aimed at improving necro DPS. The problem is that given a choice in the 1-65 era where the DoT revamp hasn't taken place, virtually nobody is choosing to play this class due to design problems. Bad DPS is just a symptom of the real problem. Maybe people play through to enjoy later eras, but nobody is playing here where this change would be relevant and people have the option of playing any class they want. Maybe DPS would improve after a revamp as a side effect but that is not the intended goal. This has nothing to do with necro or casters vs melee. Or necros vs any other class really, shaman is only used as an example to show how broken necros are. Every other caster, druids, rogues, paladins, every other class is mained except necros. If necros were fine and the 1-65 revamp wasn't necessary, there wouldn't be a total void of mains for that class over the span of years in the only era it is relevant.

interpretation
noun
the action of explaining the meaning of something

Ignoring the quotes that contradict you while cherry picking the ones you like and manipulating it so the explanation suits your opinion is your interpretation. Regardless, that post is so old that it's meaningless to keep arguing about what they want to do today based on their intentions from years ago.

Your first post, complete opinion.

Your second post, again complete opinion and then lying about it being a fact.

Almost every post you have made has been your translation or agenda about the revamps. I linked you his exact words showing you that you were wrong after calling the OP out. Since you don't believe the actual words from the revamp post and continue on with your poor comprehension lets look at Aristo's actions based on the words from that post which match what he said and not your magic interpretation.

Almost every dot for beastlords, rangers, druids, shaman and enchanters were increased in base damage. Including dots from level 1-65 and and including the first version of a dot line when there was no prior version to stack with it. He just increased the dps and damage of the dot as he clearly stated he would in the revamp thread. He didn't only modify the 2nd or 3rd iteration of a dot line for others, nor did he wait until post 70 to only fix debuff cap issues. He boosted the damage and dps of any dot he touched, some of it was reverted back when he realized he did to much, but he still increased the dps/damage as he stated he was going to do. His actions match exactly with his words not your "spin" of his intent.

There is no need for opinion or interpretation, he posted what he was going to do and then did it. Again stop making yourself look silly and admit to yourself you made a mistake and move on.

Exactly as he said. Necro dots are resisted FAR less than shaman. Even with malo and tash on they are resisted far more than necro dots. The OP's data is completely devoid of any sort of resist information.

Double post

"there's a limited number of debuff slots available on any given NPC, which conflicts with DoT classes wanting to layer as many spells as possible on any given NPC in order to maximize damage. This layering has contributed to a lot of problems over the years; most notably, it takes a lot of spell slots away from players who want to maximize DoT damage, and it uses up many of the limited debuff slots available on raid targets."

Aristo said it himself. The debuff limit is an issue for DoT classes stacking many spells onto a single mob. Again, this isn't hard to read or understand. Why do you even think he gave this synopsis before going into further detail (which you removed) on DoT consolidations? Hmmm oh, that's right! Because that's the reason why they are revamping DoTs. So it seems by opinion is backed up by a direct quote from Aristo. Not interpretation, but fact.

Again, I'm not the one failing to read and understand Aristo's post. You are. Read the quotes again found above. It's still fact, whether or not you want it to be. DoT stacking taking up too many of the limited amount of debuff slots = DoT consolidation. This is fact.

You described yourself quite nicely here.

Again, increased damage was one of the many results of the DoT consolidation. I'm fully aware of this and ;have no issue stating that so I'm not sure what you're continuing on about it.

What I'm saying, and will continue to say, is that the REASON for the DoT consolidation wasn't to boost DoT classes. It was a RESULT of the implementation to try to fix the problem that Aristo spoke about in his leading paragraph. You have yet to show anywhere it mentions that the DoT consolidation was done because they wanted to boost DPS. Until then, you are wrong (and if you post yet again Aristo's "we expect blah blah blah" as proof, reread this entire paragraph. That's a result, not a reason why they started the project).

Put it this way: I change the lights in my house to LED to conserve energy. As a result of me going to LED, I find all the rooms in my house are now brighter. This is an indirect result of a project I completely to save electricity. I didn't switch to LEDs for better illumination. DoTs getting better is the equivalent of better illumination in this analogy.

Aristo did admit that after reviewing some DoTs that he did notice BSTs were lacking because of lack of AAs vs other DoT classes. Now, that's just a find during his research. He didn't start this project to simply boost DoT classes. If he had, there would be way easier ways to go about doing so AKA just changing the numbers of the base spell damage.

Yes, I'm well aware of what he did. However, what you're failing at understanding is that I'm not arguing about the results of his DoT consolidation. I'm arguing the merits for why they were done. Something you continually have failed to speak about. You're way too concerned with the finish line while I'm explicitly talking about the starting line.

Just because DoT damage was increased, it doesn't mean the overall scope of the project from the get-go was to boost damage. It was to try and solve the growing issue too many spells being casted on mobs with hard-coded debuff limits.

You're spinning and pivoting. No one ever said the debuff cap issue and the number of dots being used by some classes were not major drivers, if not thee drivers, as to why the changes started. They were, but those were the post 70 live issue drivers. I said you were wrong for saying they were the ONLY drivers, as he fully intended to boost dps and damage as he explained with his words and with his actions.

But lets go further now and ignore his words and his actions. We will only go by your interpretation or explanation for the intent of the changes. And pretend the room being brighter was only a side effect from the LED light bulb swap to save money.

• Please explain why he doubled the base damage of a druids level 1 dot (which was also a rangers level 3 dot)?
• Please explain why he doubled a shamans level 4 dot (which is also a bsts level 14 dot)?
• Please explain why even further down the line was he taking say the 3rd or 4th iteration of a dot adding up what you would get damage wise from all prior versions being stacked and then adding even more onto it? Even when in many cases no class was using say 3 or 4 versions of an old dot line to stack on a mob.
• Please explain why for 5 of the revamped dot classes did he revamp from level 1 up? When as you said there was zero debuff cap or stacking issues below say level 70 or 60 or 50 or 30 or 10 with dots.

There is only one reason he would double the base damage of a level 1 or 4 or whatever level the first iteration of a dot was, while then also adding on more and more damage on top of any later iteration (ie version 4 of the dot being version 1 + version 2 + version 3 + even more damage stacked on) in some cases years before there was even a hint of debuff cap issues. He clearly stated it in his post, demonstrated it in his rollout for 5 years and yet you tell us its simply not true and called out the OP for it.

Arguing with Triconix is like talking to a wall. He has an obsession with "being right", no matter what sort of twisting it takes to achieve such. And hey, his words merit more than others because don't forget, he's in a top five six guild on live!