[Mischief] Raid Main - Thinking of getting out of the DPS role

(FYI: This long-winded post is only in consideration of SoF and beyond. I'm not looking at classic here at all)

I'm debating a move away from the DPS rat race and putting my effort into a more support oriented role. DPS has always been my favorite role because I like seeing my name at the top of parses. But with all the ebb and flow of class balance over the up coming expansions, no single class will always be on top and I don't want to be the guy that main changes all the time trying to chase the flavor of the month. I'd rather just fill a different role.

(* I already know that "just because I'm not on top doesn't mean I'm not still helping". That's not the point of this post.)

Primarily, I'm looking at SK, Pal, Bst or maybe even Bard. For the players who main these classes, what do you enjoy about your class in raids? What are you looking forward to in future expansions? Do you compare yourself to other raiders (in the way a DPS parse does) or do you just play the game and have fun?

I'm leaning towards a knight class because tanks are always useful both in and out of raid. They also need a lot of gear/AA and I love that aspect. I like knowing every small gear upgrade makes a difference to my primary role (where on a DPS class, they don't often directly impact my primary role of dealing damage. Yes yes, you survive more, bla bla.)

Bsts are a cool and unique class that is just about to turn a corner and come into their own. I like knowing they can solo when they want, and in later game, their aDPS is crazy good. One of my only negative things about bsts is that they don't "make or break" most situations. For example, having a top of the line bst isn't going to turn the tide in a raid. Where-as with the knight classes, I feel like there is some precedent for that to happen. The other concern is that bsts don't do anything that I can really "compete" over when comparing yourself to other players. Maybe I'm a vain pos, but seeing myself "beat" other players is rewarding and gives a dopamine hit that I like. Bst wont' really "beat" anybody at anything, so I'm not sure I could stick with this one.

Looking at SK, they don't compete for DPS or Healing parses either. The only way to know you're doing a good job on the SK is if you're simply doing your job right. Tagging adds quickly, kiting without dying, or hoping on the named with a disc/glyph if the warriors all go down.

Breaking down the knight classes could be it's own post. But in a nutshell, I think pally is way more helpful to a raid than sk. And they're not a dime a dozen like SK's. By Underfoot, I imagine the pally can compete for heal parses (which sounds fun). The SK on the other hand get so many fun and helpful utilities and would definitely be more my jam for grouping. Just having AE aggro makes me want to play SK over Pal. Plus those sweet procs are just so satisfying. If it weren't for the fairly large discrepancy in DPS, I think I'd lean more towards paladin.

Bards are interesting to me because I think they're one of the most complicated classes and it's hard to master. I'm told that amazing bards can do amazing things. I haven't necessarily seen it myself, so I'm not sure what that really looks like. I don't know that they can "turn the tide", in a raid setting. I'm also not super fond of pulling for really long play sessions, so I think the group game may wear on me with the bard.

Anyway, I just wanted to write out my ideas about potential mains and see if anybody has any input. I asked a few questions at the top of the post. If anybody currently raid mains one of these classes and cares to chime in, I'm all ears!

Before someone says "Play the class you have the most fun playing" or "the best class to play is the one you enjoy" - those replies are unhelpful to me. If I knew what class was the most fun, I wouldn't be here asking to converse about it.

I also do not want to max out all 4 of these classes just to see if they're what I'm looking for. I want some upfront info first. Thanks!

Jump on test and /testbuff. you get lvl 25 and full set of gear to get a closer idea of what you might like. Also, the exp is incredibly fast. You can level to 50-60 very quickly

If we are talking classic-pop era then here are some examples for the classes you picked.

For raiding beast suck for awhile and they take gear away from one of the highest dps classes available - Monks. They are fun and capable solo though.

Paladin is great around luclin when they get the long duration stun but really only need one in your raid with DA hammer. There is some use to having two in order to chain stuns. Not that useful before that and really start to come into their role during PoP when you get fast heals and decent cures. You start seeing some of that slay undead stuff and big group heals around PoP.Very very bad dps and pretty boring outside of raiding.

SK is really good after Luclin. if your raid needs a kiter they have instant cast aggro + spells , two of them on different cool downs. much higher dps compared to paladin that make them decent solo. Self healing feels more organic , since you dont have to switch targets and sometimes you get a complete heal in the form of a crit dmg / exceptional heal. AA feel more interesting and just overall a more fun toolkit to work with.

Bard takes a special player to be good. If you know the game well and are really good at multi tasking you can pull off some really good pulls that help your guild skip loads of trash. Especially in PoP era. We had a bard that could pull all the PoAir Avatars out so we never had to clear temples. Bard managed to solo kite all the trash for Rallos zek event in tactics. Another class that is great with a raid but not that fun solo anymore. Their songs that buff other players are high demand as well, so its not even a big problem to have a bard that is afk a lot but stays with their group. Really boring until PoP when they get fade and have more to do. Between classic- luclin you spend most of your time feeling like a bad dps that everyone complains to if you arent playing songs that benefit them

Thanks for the reply. I do appreciate the effort! I tried to make it clear that I wasn't interested in classic-pop haha. But I guess even if it's the very first sentence people are still going to miss it! =D

No one told you about necromancers?

Personally for class selection I primarily look at activity level...such as if you look at a melee dps vs something like a shaman...way way way more active play on the shaman.

With what you listed in terms of raiding.

SK: You're going to offtank adds...kite a lot...and be expected to dps when not doing those two.

Paladin: You're ramp tank and should be parsing quite high on heals more than anything (especially with splash coming up) with sometimes adds.

Beast: Imo this is probably the most active of the ones you listed. Hybrids tend to be up there when played correctly aside from just their melee things they also have a lot going on with continual nuking/dotting and even support they offer.

Bard: Rough one cuz unless you're pulling in raid you're a melody bard, atm you can top a dps chart with bellow and all but outside of that and pulling you just auto primarily. Super helpful class, but a much better box than main.

Hah yeah, I hear necros hit the top and stay there for a while. They're not there yet (on Mischief) but I think it's less than a year before they really take off. RoF perhaps? They are a fun class for sure and a TON of utility. Mines parked at level 70 with his 2.0 and CoA robe. Just in case.

Thanks for the input. Beast is definitely a very active class. Even just now in TBS they have plenty to be mindful of. That list just grows and grows. By live their DPS is very competitive too. I suspect a well played, geared, and AA'd beastlord will soon give any lesser played class a run for their money.

Your points about bard align with my notion of the class too. Which is why it was last on my list. I'll probably just withdraw this one from consideration.

I guess I continue to lean towards one of the knights. SK's are often considered to be the strongest of the two classes because they're the DPS oriented knight. Their self-healing is also pretty solid and they get a ton of useful tools that help themselves. Paladin get's a lot of very useful tools too, but they're often to help others.

I prefer the SK style more, but it's so hard picking a class that's so over played. You only need 2-3 of them on a raid and we always have 5-8 of them. They're helpful, sure. But they'd be more helpful if the extra 5 SK's played almost anything else. Meanwhile, we can't get a paladin to stick around to save our lives. Which just doesn't bode well for the fun of the class.

I want to find a way to love the paladin. I'm just not sure how to get there hah!

I just saw this suggestion. Thanks for making it. I've played the first 50-60 levels on all the classes. It sort of gives you a test for the class. But the classes change drastically beyond that. Bst is a great example, at 60 you're going to feel pretty weak. By level 80 you'll feel crazy strong.

It takes a lot of effort to get a class to the point of really feeling it. Not just in leveling, AA's and gearing. But also in getting play time and starting to really understand the classes strengths and weaknesses. I'd honestly love to just read a discussion between mains of any given class, as they discuss the pros and cons.

Beast is one of the most fun classes I've played...outside of raids. Keeping fero up on multiple other people really killed it for me. But I quit playing one before they got the 20+ min fero then eventually group fero. If you don't mind being a fero boy, beast might be a good time for you.

As simple as it seems I really think the issue with people and pallies is just the fact that why play a pally that shows up on the heal parse when I can play an sk that I can show up on the damage parse lol. Because for me I'd much rather have a good pally in raid than a good sk. I can get dps elsewhere...something that can tank/stun/grp heal/cure/rez/etc is way more useful atm and imo a well played pally is way more active than an sk...sk is just doing a dps rotation.

Hello!

I plan to give you what you asked for. Perspective from a main who mains one of the classes you listed. My name is Vetis and I have been maining bard more or less for the past 24 years. I currently have a raid geared, near max AA bard on Aradune.

If we ignore the couple of brief breaks in play, I can say with confidence I, along with my guild (Shout out to <Vets of Norrath>! <3) have defeated every expansion in era from Classic to Seeds of Destruction.

So, lets talk.

Over the expansions it is possible to be somewhat competitive on the parse. I found myself in the top 5 here and there when my wife would actually let me focus on a raid.

I think I need to compartmentalize this conversation because, there is A LOT to talk about when it comes to a bard main versus a melody box bard. Because, these two things are radically different.

Where to begin..

DPS options:

As a bard there are a couple of different routes you can take for DPS, there are a couple of hardstuck rules if you want to parse well but you can also branch around, it is very malleable.

The hardstuck rules on raid targets (variables apply depending on mechanics) is Boastful Bellow and Epic should be applied on CD (when I say cooldown for Boastful Bellow I mean when it wears off on the mob, not when you can cast it again, recasting will cause it to reset the countdown which means the damage never hit and won't until it wears off on the mob.) Your Epic should line up with a shaman, and any good raid leader should almost always be pairing Shaman and Bard mains together specifically for their epics. (Duh, most people know this. Tell me something most people don't know Vetis!)

Okay, to top the parse for the night, always keep your most current DDD line song on your bar or prepared when you know an encounter is going to have 8+ mobs (adds and what not) that want to be killed and not CC'd. When they pop out, blow your entire mana bar on them. (And if you're feeling saucy like me, hit that staunch recovery and blow it again!)

Any time you can pick up a charmable pet, F@#$ those enchanters, take that FOR THE PARSE BABY!

• Of course.. Funeral Dirge, clickies like Circle of Power and so forth are an entire conversation of their own..

Now... Depending on group make up will (SHOULD) dictate your spell line up. If you're with the tanks, you're running damage mitigation, resists, w/e makes sense. If you're with a melee DPS group then storm blade (melee proc songs), overhaste, attack increasing spells and clickies, so on and so forth. If you're with the casters that are say fire based (wizards/magicians) then this should affect your line up, there are songs that increase the damage of fire based nukes, or ice, or magic. There are songs that add a proc to spell damage, so when they cast the spell a proc of damage is added to it from your song.

Naturally you are keeping the appropriate aura up and running, around this era you're talking about, it should most likely be the overhaste aura.

What does all of this mean? It means, you can still make top 1-10 on the parse pretty regularly. (Have had a couple of #1's over the past couple years myself) and at the same time you are also adding the incalculable aDPS. Which honestly is probably WAY more than the #'s you're putting up for yourself on the parse.

So a good bard is worth multiple DPS characters. (Watch the haters on this comment.)

Okay great, so we can CC, charm, pull, DPS, aDPS on raids. What can't we do? Heal.. Tank for the most part.

Now group settings, when you're a raid geared big boy bard there isn't much you can't do. You can reverse swarm kite to solo (very fast exp). You can pick up a friend or a box that heals and pull multiple mobs and just run your PBAoE slow/dot (and damage shield #'s and HP regen #'s can get pretty ridiculous on this class) and kill tons of mobs all at once. You can make a group, dictate the pace by pulls. (We won't talk about power leveling, I would contest bard is #1 for power leveling from like... 1-55ish)

Pulling is a whole nother category.. You'll have to DM me if you want to really get into the details on that because unlike other classes bard has TONS of options and tricks for pulling with snare.. fade.. high sun (lol, but true), charm.. mez.. calm.. invulnerability.. etc. So, if I had to give one tip, keep charm on your bar, pull 2 or 3 in era mobs at a time if you're doing 'hard' group missions. Charm the 2nd or third mob and it effectively is CC'd and also extra DPS.

Bard is the only class that can move while casting, this is NOT unique to songs. You can run around while casting origin, or clickies, or potions, etc. There is a plethora of tricky things that open up for you with this being a thing. I literally forget the capabilities and possibilities of a bard and re-remember or discover new things STILL as I play. The bard has NEVER gotten boring and I doubt ever will.

So, in conclusion. Play Shadow Knight. They're OP.

Play whatever you liv\ke, play it well, continue playing it well and other good players will know what you bring as it will be very obvious to them

Hahaha, okay so first of all, I like your style. Secondly, thanks for taking the time to write up this top-notch bard report! One of the things I look for most in a class is an ability to impress me when it's toolkit is fully utilized. Bard has always interested me because they're unique not only to EQ but to all MMOs. You mention being surprised sometimes, even after all this time on a bard, at some of the things you find doable. I love that. It's a very alluring trait.

Back before I knew what a parse was, much less knew what DPS stands for, I played a bard. It was fun and I thought I was doing great damage too. Once I found out how big a gap there really was between support and DPS I just leaned all into the DPS role. But a part of me always tugs at that memory of bardly fun, before I "got too serious".

I'm going to have to take a closer and more serious look into the class. Thanks again for this post!

BTW, Vetis, are you on the bard discord? (https://discord.gg/kaaf3AkhWW) If so, I may post some questions there and/or look to PM you if I come into specific questions.

I appreciate this sentiment. It's not the typical "play whats fun" reply. Instead it points out the fact that really all classes have their usefulness. Also, my communities impression of me is all that really matters. In a nutshell - focus on playing well and let the community figure it out as you go. (community being my guild).

It does become hard when there are so many fun options. I really do like every class I've ever played, for various reasons. I'm pretty sure I can also have fun on any class. I'm all over min/maxing these days as it's fun for me to try and push my limits. One of the things I'm trying to sus out of these conversations is "what class sees the most benefit from my obsessive min/maxing?". Because, I'll have fun on anything anyway. But might as well get the most out of it, and help my guild get the most.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that this line made me laugh out loud =)

My name on Discord is Vetis#1007. Add me, I am always more than happy to talk bard with anyone who wants their ear talked off about it.

I read this and wanted to throw a couple fun things about this I've done.

Maiden's Eye in Shadows of Luclin there were namers in a sea of roaming mobs that dropped the shards for the flag to get into the raid zones. This was pre-fading memories era. I would run out, pull the named and as I was pulling the mob back to camp I was high sun the other mobs and they would wipe aggro for distance. I won't assume you know what high sun is but you probably do, if not it "gates" the mob to its spawn point.

In Omens of War (Rift Seekers Sanctum) I would keep like 8 PH/namers down from one point in the zone. The spot normally would do like 3-4 named. But I would run across the zone and (again ton of options for pulling but... in this case I mez'd the mob near the named to single it. then as it was chasing after me I would mez or calm mobs i was coming up on so they would not also join into a train with the named/ph, I could eventually get the mob solo to the group, fade and re-tag it solo.

Two short quick examples.. So, like I said, BIG difference between a boxed bard and a legit main.

But alas, if you don't like pulling. I would not recommend bard. It's a big part of not only the class but the fun of playing the class.

You could always go on Miragul and try the classes at 85. Just to get a feel for the classes at those levels. Before Miragul, I just used a heroic, tried a class, deleted it and made a new one, lol.

Of course it is a bit different for raiding than just testing a new character.

For example: I love the SK class. Solo/molo, boxing, group, I have a blast. I don't really like raiding with one though. I enjoyed BST, but not until around 85-90. I did like paladin at higher levels when the heals changed a bit, but generally not a fun class for me. I love bards, just hate playing them, even as a box, lol.

You didn't mention the class, but if you want a non dps, Shaman could be fun. They're a lot better to play on raids during the later eras than the early ones. I even liked Druid in later game raiding.

SK if you want to be OP in solo and group situations. They are also fine in raids but are one of those classes that if none showed up it wouldn't impact the raid much if at all.

Pal if you want to still be decent in solo (vs undead) and group situations and have decent raid utility.