[Mischief] BiS Bard or Paladin for raid main (SoF and beyond)

I'm trying to decide between paladin and bard for my raid main. I'm curious which class people think is the most useful. Both seem about equal in terms of "fun factor" to me.

Our current raid force has 1 paladin main and 1 bard main. We also have 4-5 boxed bards. So not every group gets a bard at the moment. Also, I don't just raid, so I'm also considering the group game in this decision as well, though my priority is helping our raid efforts.

Either class I go with will mostly be BiS geared. I only mention that, because paladin wouldn't be very useful if that wasn't the case.

So, which class would you say is most useful to a raid and why?

Can never go wrong with a bard as they are always welcome in raids.

Bard boxes are usually "good enough", adding quite a bit just passively. But a good strong paladin main is invaluable in terms of add control, rampage tank, group heals, and splashes soon.

Bard.

There is no situation where a raid would want a Paladin over another bard, even a boxed bard. Also bards will probably get groups easier and can do more out in the open world.

That being said, at least you didn't say SK. Having 6 main Sks is terrible.

Just to address what Rasper said,

Add Control - Its Mischief, no such thing as add control, round em up and AE/Cleave down
Ramp Tank - theres a ton of people who can do this, and frankly we don't even do ramp tanks anymore, we just kill mobs, none of this matters on Mischief.
Heals - their group heals are nice, but not nicer than another Bard.

The Splash Paladins get in UF are amazing and having 2-3 Paladins that cast those to cure the entire is required for some encounters.

Guess well see when we get there. I have had people telling me since Classic that "This and that" is tough...nothing is tough on Mischief. The mobs literally roll over. UF is the last hope for anything difficult, and if Im a betting man, it will be just as easy as everything else.

The guy literally asked what is more useful to a raid a bard or Paladin...The answer is Bard even with the infinitesimal amount of times have 2-3 Paladins is useful, that doesnt mean that 99% of the time a Bard would be more useful.

It's conceivable that a raid might have room for 2-3 Paladins but that same raid would take a Bard in every group if they were available

Is that because bard is actually more useful or just because people like their parse to be higher? Desire to group with a class does not equate to the class being more useful. How much does a bard add to the group? 25-40% more dps during this era? So presumably 4 people are getting 25-40% more dps. Is that more useful than the tools a paladin brings?

Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. I'd say the bard is definitely more useful than a bad paladin. But I'm not sure I've ever seen a really good paladin.

How about providing additional details? Just saying "bard is better" isn't convincing. I'd love to see the numbers behind the sentiment and/or examples of how it actually plays out in a raid.

(FWIW: I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just not convinced without more detail. It's entirely plausible that a bard is worth more to a raid. But a good paladin can impact a raid in a lot of ways that I think are being over looked for the sake of a few people having higher dps)

A box bard isn't even close to an actively played bard. Paladins are integral to countering certain raid specific mechanics with their splashes and also doing general knight stuff. So if you're just looking to contribute meaningfully to a raid either will work, it just comes down to what playstyle you prefer and your guild needs. As far as groups go, again bard mains are way more effective than boxes. I can't really comment on group paladins since I don't remember the last time I actually grouped with one.

A bard can increase the DPS of its group in this era easily by millions of damage. A single bard can increase kill times and lessen raid times for the entire raid and there is little diminishing effects till every group has one. A "Few people having more DPS" is literally the single most important thing to any raid at this point on Mischief.

I have had some great Paladins in my guilds over the last 15 years. Right now I have an awesome one (I lead/raid lead a current top 5 guild on Mischief), I have never, not once, not ever, said "man I wish we had that Paladin". I'm not saying that having at least 1 Paladin is ok, but Sks are just better than Paladins.

Now "supposedly" come UF these splashes are gonna make or break half a fight on the third mini named of the 6th raid, but until I see it, I am not inclined to believe it.

Otherwise, I cannot tell you what a Paladin brings to the raid. That isn't trying to be mean, but I see no discernable reason to have a Paladin in the raid at all. I guess they group heal ok? But who cares? All my groups have healers already, the Paladin isnt needed. We don't "root" things anymore, it just gets offtanked and Sks do that better cause they hold agro easier with their agro spells. No one uses Brells cause Ranger buffs are better. Honestly, not even LOH on the tank is very useful anymore.

I hope this splash thing does come to fruition, cause frankly there really is no point in having a Pal over an SK (since SK does more dmg and dmg is really the ONLY thing that matters on raids at this point).

I dunno, Bards bring an insane amount of raid bonuses and, frankly, Paladins bring almost nothing IMO.

For myself, I have lead 7 different top 5-6 guilds on 7 different servers, and I have never been convinced that Paladins are anything other than a poor mans SK. Here's hoping UF changes that for me, but even then, if they are only useful for a handful of fights, bards are useful for 100% of the raid.

Bard is more useful than Paladin, truly there really isn't even a comparison. There is a reason that Paladins and Druids are the least played classes. If you want to group tank, fine play a Paladin, though SK is better, but every guild has way too many Sks already so you probably wont find a guild looking for Sks either. Have a better chance as a Paladin probably.

I love how the discussion is about planning for SoF and beyond, and we're getting wall of texts from someone who's never seen Underfoot.

Under the guild recruitment for live guilds, the majority of them are looking for a main bard or a main cleric still. A bard is future proof.

I have to say that no matter which expansion pack you are playing the bard class takes a special type of player to enjoy it. I was once, twice, maybe thrice lured by the bard's do all be all class archetype. I dreamed of impressing entire groups, raids, and servers but alas when I actually committed to playing them, I /camped, clicked delete, and happily entered my character name. Good-bye Bard. You will never trick me into pulling ever again!

Every group needs a bard if your goal is perfect comp. They add so much to every class as well as doing great damage on their own.

Tell ya what, the day I find Paladins to be more useful on raids (and not just 1 or 2 fights every 10th expansion) than a Bard, I will happily return to this thread and admit I was wrong.

That being said, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Live game begins with Underfoot.

Depends entirely on your guilds raid comp.

I am a raid leader on Aradune and if we have 2 main bards 6 box bards // 1 main paladin 2 box paladin and someone asks me what i'd rather have, i'd choose a 2nd main paladin.

The splash in Underfoot is absolutely amazing. Sure if you have a healer and bard in every group and extra clerics to keep tanks up it isn't critical, but try doing some of these encounters with ~30 people playing ~40 toons. 3-5 clerics 1-2 druids and 2-3 shamans depending on attendance. Trust me when i say having those 2-3 paladins splashing the raid so that everyone can focus on keeping the tanks alive is critical after UF.

I'm sure UF will be the easiest it's ever been on Mischief, but that's just because everyone will be the most geared they've ever been on Mischief. UF is a considerable jump in difficulty on raids and makes everything before it look even more face-roll than it was in-era.

With all of that being said, play whatever you enjoy. At the end of the day if you aren't enjoying whatever class you are playing you aren't going to play them well or continue to play at all, so it won't matter if you were 'useful' to the raid or not. Play what you enjoy and find a guild full of people that you enjoy playing with. Then you'll have fun grouping and raiding and your guild won't care if you are on the most 'useful' class or not.

1) Play what you enjoy.

2) Play that thing well.

If you do those, you'll be fine. If you enjoy both equally, do the paladin imo. You can always switch later, and having a second main paladin is value added. Also gearing tanks is expensive; and the difference between a tank with meh gear or great gear can be a significant factor w/r to more challenging group or small man raid content.

Even as a single boxer, well geared, well played tanks are always in demand.

Otoh, absolutely nothing wrong with being a main bard. Bards have a crazy unique/diverse toolkit.

While it is true that Bards are super strong and basically remain the best class in the game, the first 1-2 Paladins in a guild are very important. There is so much value.

As you state a raiding force could use 1-2 paladins and they could also use 9 bards.

Kerafrym parse
Bard: 5858 sdps
Boxed Bard: 5288 sdps

Bards are the single "easiest to add the most value" boxed class there is.

The problem with paladins is there are very few good paladins. A good paladin heals better than many priests and can hold aggro single target almost as well as an SK and AE just as well. We have one in our guild, gratefully. Many guilds do not.