KungenTV (aka: wow player playing EQ) caught training....

Sad to see someone as big as Kungen go. But what he did was pretty stupid on his part. Glad to see the GM's enforcing rules. Gives me new hope on this server

See post #40 and #42 in this thread -

Go to 1:07:00 in Roshen twitch stream from last night and see what he said about training.

Why was he unbanned? Was his ban determined to be improper? Which GM banned him? Has this GM been instructed in proper use of banning?

This ...
If even Roshen didn't have a clear opinion on it, they could at least have given a warning, I'd say?

twitch.tv/roshen/b/662160582 (starts at 1:07:00)

"I have no strong opinion, art convoker
Generally it's not awesome to train people but if people aren't very good at walking six characters away .. I mean what do you do .. so .. generally not suppose (?) to train people but do what you do .."

It's a bit disturbing how quickly he was banned. To be honest, he is responsible for a lot of re-subs of old and new players. I learned about Ragefire from his stream.

He also did it because he demanded a campcheck be done for him, and if it was incorrect he would "train them out of the zone for the rest of the night".

Pieces of crud like Kungen do NOT belong on this server.

"I have no strong opinion, art convoker
Generally it's not awesome to train people but if people aren't very good at walking six characters away .. I mean what do you do .. so .. generally not suppose (?) to train people but do what you do .."

If you want to nit pick on words. I guess you could twist it so he is saying training is ok. But if you have a clue to what the merit of the other rules of player conduct are. When you train out of malice, it is not the act of the train, its the act of trying to disrupt others playing.

I fully agree .. it's absolutely wrong to train just to grief others .. but I feel it is totally justified if people come to you and start KSing or start being rude and what not .. this game brings out the worst in some people and some just don't have an interest in talking nicely in which case training in my opinion is justified to a limited extent .. I see it as a kind of socially corrective action so to say ..

And as far as I understand the situation that is what Kungen did .. he asked for a camp check twice and got in response from a TL box army .. kind words didn't help, so disciplinary action coming from the community itself was jusitified I feel ..

Situational ethics. And is a recipe for getting yourself a timeout or banned.

Players don't get to unilaterally make up their own set of rules.

Personally, I think banning a trainer on a 1k+ viewer stream is exactly the recipe for cleaning up a lot of the attitudes on this server in a very public way.

So you're saying that because a group that was already in place didn't respond to a camp check, they were KSing?

Or are you saying that by virtue of being boxers, they were KSing even if they were there first?

I did not say they were KSing, nor was I there to witness the incident. I'm just saying I would not jump directly to the conclusion that what he did there was absolutely unjustified .. He did not deserve to get suspended without warning or without hearing him out ..

The issue was that Kungen was banned for violating a zone disruption rule (training) within 10 minutes, whereas the person trained was violating another zone disruption rule (monopolizing content) and not even given a warning.

These rules are clearly laid out and have been posted earlier in this thread. The rule does not distinguish between the two -- they are both equal zone disruptions and should be dealt with similarly.

Two wrongs don't make a right. It typically just ends up in an escalated event with more then just a single training episode. At that point other people not involved in that re train typically pay the price. So not only does it harm the game play of the boxer you will provoke a fight that would harm other peoples game play.

You don't like him, fine, just don't let his puller take mobs to his crew then the problem is solved. If you are lucky he will be kind enough to do the last 20-30% of damage so you speed up killing.

How exactly was he monopolizing content? Looked to me like mobs were up, so how is that monopolizing. Sounds more like others were slacking and not killing.

Champion, King, Priest, window, Noble areas were being cleared by the 6-box. You may be referring to repops after the first train?

The rule in question is here:
3. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to::

o Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area.

It's actually the 1st example given of a zone disruption. Training is 4th. There is no justification for treating the 4th with a ban in less than 10 minutes without talking to the player in question while the person violating the 1st isn't even told of his own violation. This degrades confidence in the server if people perceive rules and punishments can be handed out on a whim; it seems to be much better practice to simply enforce all the rules similarly, or none.

He is trying to suggest that boxing is content monopolization.

In a sense, it is; Daybreak has refused to instance upper level content, and so for every 6 boxer group doing a named camp, that's one person claiming content that would normally support 6 people not boxing.

However, the rules were not written to deal with the boxing situation. From a standpoint of the rules, I cannot imagine that they were meant to be used against a boxed group.

I just don't understand why people are fighting against the boxers instead of rallying against Daybreak to extend their load balancing technology to upper level zones?

Intentional training isn't justified under any circumstance.

I say again, players don't get to make up their own rules as they suit them. Boxers aren't breaking any rules. Trainers are. It's that simple. I'm thrilled that he got the hammer on his 1k+ viewer stream. A+ move on the part of the staff.

And let's clear up the fallacy that always seems to float around that responding to "camp checks" are required. They aren't. They are a nice courtesy, but if one is too busy to watch OOC and Shout or just doesn't want to respond there is no obligation to.

Bottom line is if you want a camp, get there first or be prepared to wait. Harrassing the people already there is inexcuseable. Even if it is an awful terrible evil boxer. It's ridiculous.

Unfortunately, boxers who are violating the zone disruption's rule on monopolizing content are breaking the rules. A player responded to that initial violation by breaking another one of the zone disruption's rules. The rule makes no distinction of severity with each of the examples given for zone disruption.

Obviously this is an incident of 'two wrongs don't...", but there seems to be widespread ignorance of the actual rules in question.

Let's look at this from two angles:

1. Common sense tells you that those 3 named camps are extremely close together, and experience playing EQ tells you that a group can easily hold all 3 at once. Why should it be declared a zone disruption? Pulling from a small area is not the same as pulling from half the zone; it's not a group's fault the way the zone was designed.

2. If you are so certain that this IS a rule violation, don't you think he should have petitioned first?

I'm sure you're going to have some excuse why he shouldn't have, such as "well they saw him training so they should have seen the group monopolizing too". Wrong. For, you see, training is definitely a rule violation when a GM sees it, period. Zone disruption, on the other hand, takes a lot more analysis, unless it's a high level caster coming in and slaughtering everything.

Also, not responding to a camp check has no bearing on the matter.