Healing parsing

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Vanrau, Feb 17, 2015.

  1. Vanrau Augur

    I'd like to see final results of heals on tanks for not just my heals but others heals as well. That way I can easily parse my own performance and spot problems instead of relying on a tank to post parses. Raid healers or anyone else, what is your opinion on the subject?
  2. sojero One hit wonder

    Great idea, but only the person being healed can give you the "full" heal parse. unfortunately most don't want to throw that info around because of weird notions of not getting healer or calling out etc.

    I constantly look at the heal parse of me when I'm tanking to see who like me and who doesn't :)
    Fenudir likes this.
  3. guado Augur

    Look at # of casts. You can subtract interrupts minus cast attempts (if someone is a habitual interrupter) I understand you want actual numbers, but sometimes, seeing how many spells cast and what those spells are are more valuable than actual heal numbers (IMO).

    If ClassX is shared, and Person1 and Person2 are averaging about 200 spell casts in an event, and person 3 is only casting 30, well there might be an issue there. That is not the only thing you look at, but it will give an indication as to how active your healers are.

    Raid Healing is more about just timing and ONLY healing when damage is done. Balancing the timing and overhealing is key.
    moogs, Fenudir and Sancus like this.
  4. Fenudir Augur

    Both Sojero and Guado got it just right. The only thing that I will add is that if you've really got your heart dead set on actual numbers then ask a tank or two to send you their heal parses in a tell. They might do it.
  5. Vanrau Augur

    Ya I already parse heals cast by whoever. It would be nice to see actual numbers on tanks however.
  6. Lisandra Augur

    You'd have to ask Beimeith about that because he is the one who updates & controls Gamparse now. Daybreak doesn't have a parser and never has, it's always been 3rd party. I do agree it would be nice to get an actual parse for each healer. The range on the logs also needs to be extended for pretty much everything so that casters & healers don't have to hug a mob in order to get an accurate parse.
  7. Vanrau Augur

    The parser is not the problem. It will not pick up the heals because Everquest doesn't display healing done by other healers with direct healing spells. I can see what spells they cast but I do not see how much they heal for and who they are healing.
    Beimeith and Fenudir like this.
  8. guado Augur

    The solution was already presented to you, your tank must report. That is the only way to guarantee 100% accuracy.
    Crystilla likes this.
  9. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Thanks for this discussion guys I got a better idea of heal parses from it. Don't raid a real lot or parse or play a healer as a main but thanks for the info.
  10. Tour Augur

    Just be very careful how you read those parses / logs. Heal parses are nothing like DPS parses, and bad or severely incomplete data, or misreading of it, can often be worse than not having that information at all, especially if you use that information to affect healer role, placement, and training.

    Long gone are the days where you just had a single big named, a tank, and all / near all the healers on it (some NToV / Arx one-off number 2 aside). What you don't see on the tank provided parse, but will on the log (provided they are in range), is all the DI's, DA's on FV if needed, buffs, spires, splashes, rezs, divine rezs, calls, MGB's, cures, DPS augmentation if applicable, epic use if applicable, heals to anyone else other than that person, and generally everything needed that keeps the other 53 people in raid up and running to win the event. That person low on the heal parse compared to their pears might not be very good ... or more likely they were out healing kiters, rezzing people, making sure critical buffs were kept up on people, healing the ramp tank, etc. Additionally, the healers in the MT group are going to have intrinsically higher numbers not just due to the fact that watching the MT is their chief responsibility, but by virtue of the fact that they are grouped together and various AA's, spells, abilities and such only work within that group.

    Likewise, when you have split tanking, which is pretty much every event, those healers not on the tank providing the parse are obviously going to be low or even absent on it maybe minus some passive heals, cause they were busy healing one of the other tanks.Off tank / trash mob groups are another good example. Have two or more healers in one, but only one active tank at the time that needs only their assigned healer on them, frees up the other healer to help on other targets, such as the MT. That free healer is going to show up higher on the parse as a result.

    And while all the above certainly seems obvious, I still see people treat them as if they were DPS parses, or if they were some sort of competition. There is a lot of context to put them in, which can be difficult to appreciate if you aren't reading them right away while the event is fresh in your mind. And if you're not putting them in context, and knowing what every healers role was that raid and what they were contributing, you may as well just not read them at all.

    Cast logs, likewise, have some similar issues. But they provide a fuller picture of what everyone is doing. Their big issues is capture range though. And if you want to get real fancy, you can use the program to also see not just what they casted, but when they casted it. The later is really handy for checking disc timing, look for gaps in healing, trying to identify why a tank died, etc.

    A rough read may be immediately after the event while loot is going on. And finer more exhaustive reads at the end of the raid night immediately after the last raid or within a few hours of the next day's morning. It's also good to note any pertinent information, such as what group and roles your healers were in. Who was chiefly responsibly for the MT's? Who had to break off and heal ramp? Who was responsibly for off tanks? Who was doing more utility / group heals / splash / support? Who was healing kiters? etc.

    And don't just look at the total cast count. That means nothing by itself. Look at what made those casts up.
    Additionally, before looking at the data itself, also good to think of what kind of event it was and how your run was so you can put that data in context.

    What raid was it? What are it's mechanics? Did we win? Roughly how long did it take? Early or late in the raid night: very long cool down AA's available or not?
    Was it a new event? Farm? Grey area in-between?
    Something we were learning or tweaking? Were we going for an achievement with greater difficulty?
    Difficult raid with high mortality? Did any healers die?
    What unique issues will raiders / healers face during this event?
    Recall any healers missing emotes?
    What roles will they be taking? How many healers / clerics did we have? What groups were they in and who were they paired with and who were they responsible for?
    Where were the tanks standing, especially the MT? Where were there healers? Were they in aura range?
    Did the MT die? Under what circumstances? Were they spiking? Loose adds? Any issues with DI or other frequently casted buffs? How did the other groups and off tanks do?
    Did anything usual or different or extra difficult stand out during this raid that we need to be cognizant of?
    What debuff's will be present? Which do I expect to be cured? By what mechanism do we cure them?
    Was any supplemental information: parses, tells, statements in vent, PM's etc provided?
    Who parsed the raid? Where were they standing? Where was everyone else? Would the data be accurate and in range for everyone? If not, which healer in which group would likely be the one to have data issues? Did they have frequent deaths and lots of out of zone time that would effect the logs? (some raids don't even get posted because the data is useless given it's dynamics)
    Overall impression of how the event "felt" before data is looked at?

    And all we did so far is look at the name of the raid. This is why you try and review them ASAP, when you still remember all those details.

    Were both remedy line used? How do they compare to the other clerics?
    Were multiple renewal lines used? How do they compare to the other clerics?
    Were multiple intervention lines used? Was this an event that they are allowed or not allowed? In full or in part? If in part, and used, do we know they were used at the right time? How do they compare to the other clerics? Any interference with CC?
    Cure or non-cure based group heals used in event with enchanter in group and charmed mobs?
    Was Light line used? Promised? Emblem? Why?
    Were HoT's used? Which ones? Spell, AA, both? Were AA hot's used regularly?
    MGB's used?
    TB used for pre-fight engage or to get a "free MGB" later (wouldn't be on log, but recall from memory, HoT may be in log, depending on when fired)
    Was defensive, protective, and mitigation buffs used? Ward, third spire, SB, DG, DI, symbol, etc
    Was second spire used in cases where third was not an option? (rare, but happens)
    If applicable (and is almost every raid) where cures used? Correctly? 2.0, GPS, PSoul, PSpirits, RC, nullify corruption, blood, renewal lineup, clicky cure items
    Was the cleric using purified spirits to cure themself? Potions? other?
    Shield of reverence, diplomatic papers, etc used for extra dmg mitigation?
    Were heal AA's and heal modifying AA's used?
    Did the cleric do any rezzing? How much? Basic stat buffing? How much?
    Was divine rez used at all during the night? Was there a reason to?
    Did they use group heals? Splash? How many? Who were they partnered with, if anyone? What did their group heal pattern look like? Redundancy?
    Did they use their mana gaining abilities if needed? Staunch? Servant? Kiss? Potions? VP? QM? Yaulp? Spell or AA based? Did they really need spell based?
    Slain? Remember why?
    Were DA and CDA used? How was FV during that raid, if applicable?
    If this event has a dispel, or they died, did they use their clickie items to restore them? Aura's back up?

    That's a basic more cleric centric log read. Class specifics will vary. Certainly you can vary the depth and detail as you feel is needed.

    Long story short, whatever data you end up using, don't just brush through them. Make sure you put them in context. There are lots of details to account for.

    Also you're best off having these logs and parses, in my opinion, sent to your class lead to review in private and discuss relevant points with people if needed. No one likes being under the microscope publicly every raid. Deal with individual performance issues in private. If it's a class / healer wide issue, then some data is good to post. Lastly, also good to forward individual logs to people so they can see how they are doing - especially to show them if they are doing a great job or are improving.
    Rumstil, moogs, Elricvonclief and 7 others like this.
  11. Leex Augur

    Haha oh man, I get in so much for asking a heal parse to be linked after raids. It's like you healers get to be babied when DPS classes don't get that.

    You can say a heal parse doesn't reflect 100% accurate data and that would be true, but some people completely disregard them and I think that's ignorant. You can still get a picture even with skewed data.

    My question for you healers out there, how does someone approach you without you getting the feeling they are trying to tell you how to play, or that they know better? As an example, the last 2 nights my guild cleared 1-4 also the 2nd 1 off and now we're pushing into 5, when I look at the healers casts I see a few at 1300 casts and some at 400 casts. Let's say it's a 4,000 second parse I'm looking at after the night combining everything.

    What do you guys recommend I do with this information? My guild leader babies the healers but there are times we have to go into recovery mode on raids due to the lack of heals to our tanks. I'd really like to approach them myself before bringing it to leadership, #1 because I don't want anyone to get into trouble and #2 I don't think my leader will do much about it, as clerics are like golden children these days in raid guilds.
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  12. Vanrau Augur

    I usually make posts on our cleric forums about what spell line up I use in certain situations and try to help out the other clerics to use their AA's for healing. I give out hot keys to activate our 10 minute and 15 minute cool down AA's and use GINA to help keep track of when they refresh.

    Some fights don't really need a ton of healing but then again some really require non stop healing. If I see them not casting much on a non stop healing event then I'll usually speak up and let them know what spells are needed and the frequency needed but I rarely run into that issue. Sometimes it boils down to what was happening to them or others in their group, lots of factors come into play.
  13. Tour Augur

    Good starting point would be asking those at the opposite ends of the spectrum what spell setups and spell casting mechanics they are using - if it isn't already inherit from the log. What makes up the 900 spell difference (those are numbers for the entire night, with everyone in all raids?)? Even if those on the lower end are doing slower casting things, rezs, buffs, etc, that discrepancy is really high.

    If your GL isn't doing anything with it, well, you need to find someone who will, cause those numbers are very concerning. Even if that ends up being you. No class lead to bring this to?

    Everyone is replaceable. Have low expectations for your healers, or any class, or officers, or raidleaders, you name it, and don't be surprised if they just barely meet them.
  14. Tallie Elder

    Healing parsing is just not as straightforward as dps parsing. Tour discusses a lot of the reasons why in his post above.

    Some other factors to consider are these -- 1) unlike dps healing is not always additive. Once the tank is at full hp, healing doesn't help the tank stay alive anymore. 2) The purpose of healing is to keep someone alive, not to see how big a number you can generate. If I can land a smaller faster heal when the tank is falling fast, my 25k non-crit heal might keep the tank alive long enough that the slower heal my neighbor is casting lands and crits for 110K. He get a big number, out parses my by 25k, but the tank needed both of us to stay alive. Maybe between my cast and his cast another 50k heal hit, so maybe only 50k of the 110k actually contributed to keeping the tank alive.

    How do you measure all that in a parse? And this example only considers 3 healer casting on a single tank. Throw an entire raid into the mix and it just gets more and more complicated.

    To me cast counts, what is being cast, what the healer's role is are the things you look at. Just looking at heal amounts is never going to tell much of the story.
  15. Leex Augur

    Looking at JUST the heal amount doesn't tell the story anymore, which is why I brought up casts. 1300 casts to 400 casts, or 1100 casts to 200 casts (I see both examples listed on my parse of 4 clerics I was looking at ) is a huge difference, range and death will make those casts a little inaccurate but for the most part it's spot on.

    Even if a healer's role isn't primarily to keep the tank up, if 1 healer has 1300 casts, should it be acceptable for another to be at 300? In my opinion, no. That's them not having targets up to heal who need heals. My guild never 1 tanks anything so the HP staying at 100% isn't the case, Tallie.
    Iila likes this.
  16. Tallie Elder

    The tanks hp never "stay" at 100% :) But you have no idea how many times I see "you have healed so-and-so for 3197" at the same cast I see a heal crit for over 100K.
  17. Leex Augur

    So can I ask Tallie, do you feel it's ok for healers to have such a huge difference in casts? Someone doing 200-300 casts to someone doing 900+?

    How would you address that problem with your healers?
    lefous likes this.
  18. Stickietoes Augur

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  19. Porterz73 Augur

    The answer is simple. You don't say anything directly to them because it's none of your business. If you want to bring it up to Leadership or class leaders that's fine but as a player the last thing I want is some know it all spouting nonsence about how they interpret their parse data. The problem often arises because many think DPS parses are similar to heal parses and as explained above there are huge number of factors to consider. If cast counts are as different as you say on a constant basis that is an issue for leadership to deal with not you.

    According to your criteria you are happy as long as cast counts are high... High cast counts are can easily achieved by key binding all your fastest casting spells and pressing 1 key with Main tank targeted while watching Netflix. A good healer reacts to situations and sometimes there is more going on than your parse indicates. If you want to lose good healers just allow every Johnny Jerk face to message them after every parse.

    Unless your leadership focus on your job and not others IMHO
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  20. Shadva Del`Shai Augur

    Here are my thoughts on heal parses. In order to properly evaluate a healer's performance, you need to use a combination of heal parse from the tank, cast counts AND consider each healer's role for the night/event.

    The heal parse from the tank "should" show you exactly how much each healer actually healed them for. The cast count shows how many and which spells each healer cast. Considering each healer's role for the night/event allows a better over-all picture of different variables such as OT healing, rez/rebuff assignments, DPS healer, death, etc.

    It takes a combination of all of those things to get a clearer picture.

    It would be nice if we, as healers, could see for ourselves how much "actual" healing was done instead of just seeing the crit numbers. Unfortunately, that's just not possible with the ways things are set up.

    For now, we need information from several sources to see a clearer picture. However, even with all that other info, the picture still won't be perfect.

    As for how to approach the healers about poor performance, let me know when you figure it out. Some people may never take even a hint of criticism well. You may also never get past the "we need them, no matter what" or the " a bad healer is better than NO healer" mentality from guild, raid and/or class leaders.
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