I totally disagree there They make TLP servers, which is mostly irrelevant for for level 105 players, true. HOWEVER: They have got a lot of NEW subscribers thanks to TLP, which they would not have got if no TLP. How much Money are they making on KRONOS on TLP servers alone ? How much Money would they make if they made PoW difficult Things ? I would bet that they have got more new subscribers thanks to TLP than they have got in the previous 10 years. I will also bet that reason for that success is that the new subscribes come to EQ thanks to that, and when they select TLP thats because they can see they can in affordable time get up to their friends that play there, and there no Mount Everrest to climb. in regard to AA and levels. IF I came as a new player, I would first try a normal server, where I would be F2P, and see if it is something for me. Then if it were, I would likely play on A TLP. If Agnarr, then I can see an end at PoP, I would not choose an adult server, but TLP, because thats where people my level would then be.
i frankly enjoyed having to dig out my dispel clickies for powar, I found soloing most of the progression quite fun actually. also, tbm raid geared groups wiping in PoWar? lmfao
I am standing by my point that a zone's population/usefulness today is a poor basis to make decisions to create/not create new content like it.
I wouldn't mind a top tier zone for the next expansion either. Some place to go when you are ready, and where it is very challenging, but worth it. Where all the cool kids can hang out, because it's obviously the last tier zone. Even a zone similar to the tier 2 EoK, but a few tiers up, it would be a skip a tier type zone, or maybe some other type of challenging aspect. I had suggested some open world targets that would be a few groups or even a raid target with clickies or other neat/worth loot. The closest we got to that was Ancients in frontier mountains I guess.
Now, now... Don't twist the words! AB does not generally have an issue with grouping as you like to put it. Not more than any other server at least, having an old population. Talk here is about PoWar since you want yet another version of it, aimed at only "the elite". Which we aren't really, if you think it through. We raid, yes. We get overpowered gear to survive overpowered mobs and events. We got it far easier than the regular grouping player in static zones because of that. That's all. IF PoWar were such a "great zone" as you like to paint it as, then at least by now it should be crrwded with grouping players in EoK T1/T2 armors, since that's about what we had in TBM - a time at which "grouping" in PoWar was possible but a chore. It isn't. That's the fact you ignore. It had seen it's most visitors during last year's summer, when a guild did open raids to there (including farming for the flagging and such) and that was MOSTLY the ALTs of raiders. The "regular" grouper simply isn't interested enough in a zone that gives hardly any XP (compared) but has huge risks of loosing XP, bad pathing and not much loot, even less worthwhile loot these days. We do not need another zone like PoWar, simply because PoWar proved - and still proves - that it is "content" only for a few people. Your claim that such a zone would bring people together because "raiders are needed throughout the years by the [poor] groupers" is simply wrong. Groupers can manage quite nicely without CoP4 and similar clickies. But they want - and deserve - zones they too can survive in (and not only 2-3years later), withOUT the help of raiding friends.
Another Plane of War type zone would be a marvelous idea. I have no clue why a vocal small few are attempting to make PoW sound like it was failure. It was very successful and a few steps away from being a mega success. Things that would have made it a mega success are 1.) If PoW gave an even "ok" level of experience relative to other content. - 2.) If pets could tank there in an era where pets were far more robust and were highly expected to be able to adequately handle content by grouper population. - 3.) CoTF missions not giving so much insane experience in comparison and being 100x easier(the gribble crowd was beginning......) - 4.) Other abilities being unusable in zone/wonky aggro due to debuffs etc. but even those things would have been more tolerable by the casual player base without first three points
I do indeed remember the good times in PoWar on Cazic Drogba. Thanks for the help with completing mine. I Won't forget it m8. RIP Yielzen.
I think sometimes when people read or say 'hardcore' it can mean different things. When I think of hardcore, to me it isn't a raider versus a grouper, rather someone that puts in the effort to be the best they can with the skills they have and armor they can obtain. Plane of War was a bit exciting for a while, in particular learning some of the mechanics for the named and a few steps in the tasks. Most of the trash was ~okay, but really the most difficult part regarding trash (in my opinion) was just turning off attack quick enough to not die to the riposte buff. I do agree with Seldom's points regarding the zone. Although it wasn't designed to be an 'exp' zone, I think changing that alone could have improved traffic a bit. I personally would love a more difficult zone, one that presents a challenge to even a full group of raid geared players. I don't anticipate anything like this to happen again, yet it would be great fun. There are so many ways they can make it challenging, even without neutering class abilities. Random re-spawn times, evolving mobs, regeneration limits (Like the Fall of Lord Bayle mission debuff. A lot of people would probably scream about that, but it does make a group plan and pay more attention, while making classes that have mana return capabilities quite desirable), difficult and interesting named/trash abilities, harder hitting mobs, higher mob regen, linked mobs, chain spawning mobs (like golems in CoM)...too many to list. Sadly I don't think we will see a full zone dedicated to the 'hardcore' again, in my opinion due to catering to the majority. Which is fine, I get it. Time needs to be spent developing a game that a majority can play. While I do think Empires is a good expansion, it really is lacking some challenges that previous expansions had. I do think there should be more than 'okay let us see how many mobs we can pull this time and survive' for those of us that enjoy a challenge. A few challenging missions would be superb, even if not linked to progression (and in my opinion, not just a time trial). Rot2 is one of my favorite missions in the game. I ran that mission every day I could when it came out. Short of that, a few difficult named mobs spread throughout would be fun. In RoF we had a few 'multi-group' named, even some optional (and interesting) named fights in missions that would yield extra rewards in the chest. Of course, we all play this game for our enjoyment and entertainment. How we are entertained by it or enjoy it varies for each of us. The developers probably have a difficult time finding that right balance, and let's be honest it will never be perfect for everyone. I do pity them sometimes, we can be a rather critical lot tl;dr - Yes, please...throw us a bone(r) next expansion with at least a few items of interest to those that like a challenge. If it is a zone though, can it at least look more interesting than plane of war? That zone was to bland for my taste (there comes that critical part..)
I think Old Sebilis Hardcore Heritage counted as a zone more tailored for raiders. I do disagree with the OP who said it should give 15x experience. Exp gain is already insane in EOK zones. Comparable experience in the hard zone would be fair. The draw is the items, not the experience gain. The Lab instanced merc quests were also super hard for a while, where almost all mobs were red. It made CC near impossible due to level limits. Of course, the reward from doing the missions was limited so it was best to just avoid the zones until it was fixed.
Raiders don't get it easy, their gear allows them to do way more than people that don't have it. As for competence, you achieve it mostly (there are exceptions) by playing the whole game and not just half of it. I still have to find a grouper (strictly) worth a competent raider (I know they exist, but more likely on Xegony, FV etc...), feel free to proove me wrong. As for the topic, while those zones are good on the "paper", in practise, noone goes there, not the groupers that want a bigger challenge, not the raiders, not many people. The really motivated people did PoWar and the others just skipped the content.
Most of my years spent grouping (both with and without raid gear) 14 hours every day is evidence enough for me. Once upon a time, we had difficult content to go and do, and those interested would go and do it. I know that I didn't just dream that it happened! I think it's hard to be an active hardcore player and not raid at this point in the game. Though they are of course out there. With expansions coming out yearly instead of every 6 months, not having to gear through 5 tiers of content, and the content becoming gradually easier to the point where there's less payout to mastering your character because everything can be beaten with average joe x4, it is harder for hardcore players to stay active on one main and not get bored imo. they raid, make alts or quit.
That's exactly what i mean by "they get it easy". The raid gear is so far from group gear that raiders will always have a far easier time in the static zones. Way back when i was actively playing as a grouper, me and people like me had to "make do" with less too. i haven't forgotten those times. Nor have i forgotten what i "had to" learn back then to be a good tank. To ME, raiding is an "on top" and not "half the game". What truly sets apart the "hardcore" from the "casual" isn't the guild they play in nor the gear they have. In my book it's what one invests into his char, above and beyond the in-game time. I could point to a few of our apps/members i have had the pleasure of seeing. But "back then" it was more visible: When we did open raids into CoA for example, even though 1,2,3 expansions behind: You could clearly see who knows their character and who doesn't. I'm NOT saying the raiders didn't know theirs, but i AM saying that a grouper HAD to. I find it very regrettable that so many of us raiders think they're "better" simply because they raid. So you group, that's fine. And wasn't disputed or questioned. I group too, both within the guild and outside of it at times. The question wasn't about "do you group" in general or not. The question is: How much of that grouping went on in PoWar? Back when it was current, with non-raiding people. Or since it is no longer current how many "groups" have you seen going on there? From what i have seen, i would say the answer to both is "not much, if any at all". Right. There are less "hardcore groupers" out there these days than there used to be. And about the last people i knew from the older times to fall into that category recently indeed joined a raiding guild too. The groupers suffer from attrition just as much - or rather: a bit more and much sooner - from attrition as we raiders do. I guess i am in the "make ALTs" categroy then. Because i show up to our farming raids, unlike so many "hardcore raiders", and haven't quit. I regularly play my maxed-AA main still and can't say i am bored. But i don't do one thing: I don't *rush* through "content".
I thought my answer to that was implied. PoW provided many hours of hunting over the years. I've hunted with players there that didn't have raid gear when it was current. Known some diehards that would frequently build groups or open mini raids in PoW. Whenever you take on something genuinely challenging, the % of players in 100% group gear is always going to be lower.
Would it need to be an open zone or instanced? If it is instanced there could be a normal and tougher choice. More risk, more reward. I remember there being an option to do more difficult LDoNs.
If raid gear and group gear was similar in power or if a mechanism was in place to make it so raid gear was only so much more powerful in a raid setting, than normal group content could be designed to be as challenging as PoW is. As it was, PoW was challenging to raid geared and impossible for group geared. I started my warrior at TDS (returned after years of not playing at all and just started over). With the gear I had on my warrior, doing progression was very challenging. I still don't raid, because I have responsibilities that just makes me feel I can't devout a set time to, but I do play Everquest a lot and was able to gear my warrior up on all the best augs short of raiding and every single best in slot EoK rare for a warrior and wow if my warrior is not God like in EoK group game. I use to struggle to heal my warrior during TDS, but now I think a ranger can heal him through most group stuff. I can only imagine how trivial the most difficult group game must be if I also had raid gear in visible slots. The chasm in difference between raid gear and group gear really makes Everquest a completely different game depending on gear where someone in full raid gear thinks something like PoW is needed for a challenge outside of raiding. Well, make it so raid gear is @group gear power outside of raiding and you will have a lot of zones that is like PoW challenge.
Uhh I dont think I follow you. Plane of War is empty now because its 4 years old. Thats the whole point of this thread, Drogbaa wants to see a new hardcore zone. There is no "chasm". Groupers have NEVER had it so good. The T2 EoK group gear is closer to raid gear than ever before. Add in the droppable raid quality chase loot and your comments lack much weight on this. I can understand why you think it would be cool to have a hardcore zone for people in group gear only - and that to make it a level playing field, just nerf the raiders gear. That is not necessary. Average groupers already have a hard enough challenge in zones like Chardok, Droga and Korsha, we dont need more of that. We want to see groupable content that is actually a challenge for the raid geared players too. Try to keep up.
Their is no substitute for playing a toon to its full capabilities. T2 Eok group is more than adequate and allows people who know how to properly play to do quite a lot. The difference between t2 Eok group and Eok raid gear is WAS WAY smaller than the gap that is applied from people who KNOW how to play and those who DON'T.
I never personally enjoyed PoW, but I would like to see a zone with high risk/reward system in play. One zone out of the next release isn't asking a lot, nor would I think it detract from the folks who like the easier play. I think some things which would have made PoW more enjoyable would include things like: Higher EXP modifier - it was too low IMO for the risk you took being there. Random useful trash loot - Powersources, raid rares (at an increase), Perfected distillers, buff stones (maybe something that boosts heroics by 300+ for 30 minutes). Anything consumable and worth continuing to go there. 4-5 augs and some clickies is nice, but once it was farmed I didn't look back. Challenges which don't purely negate mechanics. The agro thing was horrible. Perhaps something more like a gladiator's pit which locks up the group inside and they have to fight their way out without outside help. Other groups could watch from the seats atop. Every round they add more mobs, with different abilities and weaknesses. See how far they can go, and when the entire group is wiped and the mobs are disengaged for 30ish seconds, an AE rez goes off, and they can leave with a prize relevant to how far they made it. The team is pretty creative, so I think they could come up with little "events" or such to make it engaging. Much like ancients in FM. Progression which matters - Honestly expansion wide progression is dauntingly boring. I think if you're working on things in a zone, you should have a reward for helping that zone. I didn't like the debuffs like Crypt of Decay/Sul in TBM, but perhaps a permanent buff which is applied on zone in which enhances you based on that zone's progression. Something like adding 1000 Attack/Spell damage once it's all done. Would make finishing a zone all that more enticing. Basically, there needs to be an incentive to keep going there. EXP is a good starting point, but most people max out and that incentive gets lost.
If they did nerf raid gear so it would work as group gear outside raids. How should droppable chase loot work? And guess there would be quite a few less raiders if the gear only worked when you raided as top gear. We do also raid for getting it more easy in group game, else there would be less worth spending so much time raiding when you just can use group gear and just play group game -Mossaa
I would not like another PoW. I sorta enjoyed it when it was new, but too much of it was built around denying the ability for a character to use their class abilities. I'm perfectly ok with a hard zone, but I want my characters abilities to work as designed. Some times in PoW I kinda felt like I was playing a shroud of a different class.
