Enchanter Debuff stacking?

Hi!
I'll skip right over Tash and Etherial Manipulation as those are "must do's".
But past that, an Enchanter can lay on: (absent a shammie)

Diminishing Helix. (1 icon - slow/cripple)
Confounding Constriction (1 icon - DoT w/ Debuff)
Deep Sleep (via stasis) (2 icons)
Mental Contortion AA (1 icon)

(Sorry if I'm using last expansion's names above)

Now I know all will land and show up on a mob (basic stacking) - but how do they actually interact with each other? I assume that while Mental Contortion is active it trumps a lot of other stuff, but doesn anyone actually have the "big picture"??

Personally, when burning down a named or a boss - I tend to use the small cool down between the 2 big nooks to refresh whatever above is dropping or dropped. (Well, except Mental Contortion as that's a one-shot deal)

-Rat

I'm with you on this... the way things are worded differently and slotted is confusing. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Everything added together looks like


1: Decrease Hit Damage by 25%, Decrease Melee Haste by 70%, Decrease Chance to Hit by 24%, Decrease HP when cast by 3908, Increase Disease Counter by 24
2: Cast: Deep Sleep's Malaise, Decrease Attack Speed by 70%
3: Decrease Chance to Hit by 10% with All Skills, Decrease STR by 338
4: Decrease Current HP by 3855 per tick, Decrease Magic Resist by 31, Decrease AC by 139
5: Decrease Hitpoints by 1418 per tick, Decrease DEX by 338
6: Decrease Chance to Hit by 25%, Decrease AGI by 338
7: Decrease Dual Wield by 19%

"Decrease chance to hit by" is in two separate slots 1 and 6 but I believe only the higher of them takes effect at any time as well as the "decrease attack speed/melee haste by" only the highest % will take effect. Bewildering constriction's "decrease chance to hit by __% with all skills" is very specific but deep sleep's "decrease chance to hit by __%" is not specific so I'm not sure about that.

Undermining Helix 3
1: Increase Disease Counter by 24
2: Decrease Attack Speed by 70%
3: Decrease STR by 338
4: Decrease AC by 139
5: Decrease DEX by 338
6: Decrease AGI by 338
7: Decrease Dual Wield by 19%

Bewildering Constriction 3
1: Decrease HP when cast by 3908
3: Decrease Chance to Hit by 10% with All Skills
4: Decrease Magic Resist by 31
5: Decrease Hitpoints by 1418 per tick

Deep Sleep
1: Decrease Chance to Hit by 24%
2: Cast: Deep Sleep's Malaise

Deep Sleep's Malaise
1: Decrease Melee Haste by 70%

Mental Contortion
1: Decrease Hit Damage by 25%
4: Decrease Current HP by 3855 per tick
6: Decrease Chance to Hit by 25%

When raiding, remember to use the Cripple spell + Dreary Deeds AA slow instead of the Helix spell (combo cripple + slow). If you use the Helix spell, a shaman's slow will overwrite it entirely, so you will lose the benefits of Cripple (one of the best debuffs in the game). If you use the Dreary Deeds AA, the shaman's slow will overwrite just that slot and you'll keep the effects of Cripple on the mob. Best of both worlds.

I don't think you will find a definite answer to this, other than 'they stack'. This is because we don't know how like debuffs stack (we don't have the combat damage formulas) with the exception of slow.

That being said here is how i think they work. I'm also going to break it down into the parts of the debuff(s) to,hopefully provide more clarity. Which probably wont happen knowing myself.

Someone with more knowledge/time to look into SPA#'s should be able to give better numbers. Since they shouldn't stack.

I'll do totals at the end

Undermining Helix (current, Rk1 shown)

1: Increase Disease Counter by 24

2: Decrease Attack Speed by 70%

3: Decrease STR by 307

4: Decrease AC by 126

5: Decrease DEX by 307

6: Decrease AGI by 307

7: Decrease Dual Wield by 17%

#2 Does not stack with Shm slow

#3-6 I believe is Additive with all other debuffs

#7 I believe is multiplicative with all other debuffs

Most enchanters though will have a shaman, or use
Demolished Consciousness (RK3 shown)

1: Decrease DEX by 291

2: Decrease AGI by 291

3: Decrease STR by 291

4: Decrease AC by 120

5: Decrease Dual Wield by 17%

#1-4 I believe are Additive with all other debuffs

#5 I believe is multiplicative with all other debuffs

Bewildering Contriction (current, rk 2 shown)

1: Decrease HP when cast by 3722

3: Decrease Chance to Hit by 10% with All Skills

4: Decrease Magic Resist by 30 (L104) to 60 (L1)

5: Decrease Hitpoints by 1350 per tick

# 1,4,5 Are Additive with all other debuffs (known)

#3 I believe is multiplicative with all other debuffs

Deep Sleep
Slot 1: Decrease Chance to Hit by 21%
Slot 2: Cast: Deep Sleep's Malaise

#1 I believe is multiplicative with all other debuffs

Deep Sleep Malaise
Slot 1: Decrease Melee Haste by 70%

#1 will stack, but wont take effect if another slow is on (take that necros!)

Mental Contortion
Slot 1: Decrease Hit Damage by 25%
Slot 4: Decrease Current Hit Points by 3855 per tick
Slot 6: Decrease Chance to Hit by 25%

#1 No real way to test this, nothing else in game does it to my knowing.

#4 Stacks

#6 I believe is multiplicative with all other debuffs

(100%-25% = 75%-21% = 59.25%-10% = 53.325%
100-53.325 = 46.675)

End result with MC on
You 'should' see
Decrease in chance to hit with all skills ~46.7% (or 25% if not multiplicative)

Decrease Hit Damage by 25%
Decrease Dual Wield by 17%
Decrease Melee Haste by 70% (unless mitigated)
And a Decrease in STR, AC, DEX, AGI by which one of the two debuffs placed

You'll note my 2nd sentence said "absent a Shammie"
-R

Thanks for the replies so far.... at least it's not only me that thinks this is murky at best.
-R

Yep, just threw that out there to help clarify that for any newbies reading.

That is a question in its own right though.
is it faster / efficient to tash, and helix
or tash, AA slow, cripple
since they accomplish nigh the same thing

With a Shammie you can just throw the cripple and be done with that part.
His slow will over-write the AA slow anyway.
If in a group with no shammie - I just helix.
All that said - a macro that fired the AA slow, and Cripple would cover the bases both ways.
Then you still need to decipher the real value of Confounding Constriction and Deep Sleep - which brings us full circle.
-R

I never helix. I cripple then AA slow. Helix doesn't refresh fast enough. If you have multiples and get a resist you might as well not be slowing/crippling.

I too never use spell slow.

As someone who experimented with this extensively, my impression is that Deep Sleep does stack with Confounding Constriction, but the difference with, or without Confounding Constriction is small.

I usually do them in this order:

Spell Tash (more powerful)
AA Slow (more powerful, and faster)
Demolished Consciousness
Deep Sleep
Ethereal Manipulation (my Wizard friends tell me that normally the first spell to utilize this debuff is the 6th one they cast, so EM can wait)
Confounding Constriction

Ethereal Manipulation is actual instant, there's no reason to delay. It should be in there whenever you even look at a thing.

Really it doesn't matter unless it is a burn mob. In my rotation it is always last because it is not always up whenever I go to debuff something wtb EM hasten aa would like to see it in the 5 to 7 second range even then can always cast it between the Tash and slow during gcd

Honestly I'd love to see them split up the helix line so it lands as 2 separate buff icons (one being cripple the other slow). But it's certainly not crucial as we have a slow that's faster cast and reuse timer.

Split on that would be fab