Ok, so my friends and I are pretty set on the following toons: Warrior Cleric Enchanter Magician Berserker So here is the big question =) Shaman / Bard (ADPS) - Wizard / Monk (DPS) for the 6th spot. Would the ADPS of a shaman or bard increase the DPS of the group as much as adding a pure DPS like a Monk or Wizard? I know the DPS of the berserker can be greatly increase by having a shaman or bard around. A shaman or bard can also add survivability in the form of buffs / heals or general utility. When I read through these class forums I often see a great deal of information relating to individual class DPS, but I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what the overall ADPS a class can bring for an entire group and how that stacks up to the DPS of a single toon.
Out of what you picked, Bard and Wizard I think'd be the top choices. You've got a blur between melee and caster setups, so it's hard to hit a sweet spot for tweaking the group. Wizzy benefits from the Enc/Mag, and does well on its own anyway. Bard is nice for War, Zerk, Enc DoTs and Mage pets. Shammy would be pretty good for the zerk, but you don't have much other melee power, and already have a healer. Monk'd probably be inferior to just adding a second zerk. I wanna say Beastlord and Ranger would both also work well. Both do respectable damage, Beast is great melee aDPS and offers some resource sustain, Ranger has an overlap a bit with melee and caster boosting toys. Both benefit at least somewhat from Enc aDPS and Zerk aDPS. If this is a box that won't receive much attention, the bard pulls ahead more than otherwise.
I'm actually messing around with this question right now. Add a wizard for more straight up dps, or keep the bard for all the little perks and quality of life. I think with all the variables you list, the only way to find out would be to parse it. My sense at the moment is that for three boxing, swapping my bard out for a true dps (mage in my case) will add more total dps to the group than the ADPS the bard adds to my monk. But for a six man group, the bard would probably pull ahead. What throws a wrinkle into your particular question is that you already have an enchanter and you are split almost equally between melee and caster. Simplify the question and the answer becomes clearer. Enchanter already brings haste. Since you have a magician for Malo, IMHO the wizard would bring more dps. Add the wizard, and the enchanter/mage/wizard combo would beat anything a bard could add to the zerker and warrior. Swap the enchanter for a bard and then question flips. With a bard, adding a true melee dps (ranger/rogue/beastlord) would beat any dps an enchanter could add to the magician and cleric. Of course, I think you've missed the best choice for that mix. Druid. Track, teleports, run buffs, attack debuffs, fire debuffs, and can swap between spot healing to help the cleric and nuking to help dps. I'm really curious how this works out for you. Come back and let us know what you find.
With the variety of your starting 5 you really can't go wrong with a 6th. If it will be actively played by a 6th friend, pick a class they think is fun. If it will be boxed, pick something easy to box. If I had to pick, I'd probably go ranger.
Yes, I get the 'make anything and have fun aspect' =) I know there are some very knowledgeable people on these forums and the ADPS vs DPS question from the perspective of an entire groups DPS really had me wondering. Can a ADPS class like a bard add enough DPS to a group that they can actually replace a pure DPS class? In doing so, you gain the DPS advantage and also the utility that a class like a bard brings. Or, is the ADPS they bring just a small part of what a pure DPS could bring in the ADPS slot? I believe ADPS is often overlooked in individual DPS parses - to a degree - because of the difficulty in parsing what the ADPS adds for an entire group. It may seem like an inconsequential thing, however, in a fixed group the difference can be significant over long periods of time.
I personally believed bards were the secret gods of EQ. However, their individual DPS has stagnated relative to everyone else over time. While I was away from EQ, they also nerfed Fading Memories. If I correctly understand the nerf, they made Fading Memories pretty useless in cutting edge content with high con NPCs? We had considered using a bard over the enchanter: Warrior Cleric Bard Magician Berserker We are still debating the advantages of having one over the other. The biggest issue I brought up is that while a bard can CC, when doing that, the ADPS they bring to the group drops off. Enchanter runes and their own nukes are often over looked - not to mention charm DPS when that can be used. The Cleric, Magician and Berserker were fixed choices that won't change. We are playing on the FV server and have access to top end raid gear too. I know the warrior and berserker classes are very gear dependent.
Admittedly, fading memories was THE MOST BROKEN ability in the history of the game. Insta fade everything with 0 cooldown and no cost? It should've have never been created that way, or left that way for like 12 years.
The enchanter choice in your current makeup would benefit a wizard/mage a lot with Illusions of Grandeur and Chromatic Haze on burning (wizard full burn end game can push 600k DPS range if done properly) and I've seen mages push 450k on burns. However the downside with a chanter over a bard for ADPS wise would mostly only be beneficial during a burn. Zerkers without ADPS still do a ridiculously large amount of DPS if played right. While bards can add DPS for casters along with your melees, It still is more beneficial for a melee/bard ADPS. Personally from what I understand about bards is their main help is the 25% overhaste along with their epic click for ADPS (Along with say Funeral Dirge which also helps). The overhaste can almost be fixed by getting your hands on an Ancient Cloak of Flames (18% overhaste clicky). Plus the one thing I would love to mention about a wizard (or that's in your current group makeup) is PORTS. While yes a lot of this is insignificant due to guild hall portals/PoK, You can literally bind your wizard at your favorite camp spot (if not in a dungeon) and then port the group to there. Makes running a group of people across the current zones a lot easier in that aspect since they are so large. Evacs when things start going south also is a nice perk. I absolutely love what I can do with my wizard (ghetto CC, single a monster out of stuff, kite, high DPS, Half- tank with Arcane Destruction going if a tank dies while they get a rez, port everywhere) but then again, a lot of these things are situational and take time to perfect your own technique.
I like the points you make - especially the 18% overhaste from the Ancient cloak of Flames. Bards have other ADPS they add though from Songs and AAs though. Ports are not really an issue now. We will all be in the same fellowship and mage can run and CotH - individual and group CotH. In todays game you are never really ever more than 3 zones away from anything. Also the point of burn versus sustained. I suppose I'm looking at both burst for those heavy HP named - but also sustained for getting stuff completed long term. We will be stopping to get epics for the cleric and berserker - bard too if we go that path - along the way.
I agree 100% - but my understanding is that the 'fix" pretty much killed the ability in the end game. There was no middle ground? Edit: Hate to comment on something without actually know exactly was changed. So, I did a little digging: So my understanding from this is: 1. You have to be outside of the 30 feet range for it to work at all. 2. For Level 105 bards it only works for NPCs that are level 110 and below? 3. It has less than 100% chance to succeed. 4. The mana cost is significantly higher. This actually doesn't sound too bad when paired with the other CC abilities. Anyone know what the success % is for bard fade? If a fade fails / succeeds, it it based on all NPCs or based on individual NPCs (if you pull 4 NPCs, you have to succeed 4 fade checks or just one for all 4 NPCs)? Were there any other additional changes since Sept 15th, 2015?
that's harsh enough to be basically wrong 1. you have to be outside 30 feet for the invis to work 2. that's literally everything outside raids, pretty much anything besides the boss itself in raids 3. bard is 100% success 4. the mana cost has gone up with levels. the o.g. ability works up to level 75 mobs, costs 900. the top rank works up to 110 mobs, costs 3k. modern mana pool is like 125k
Well - I was working from what I had been told - and I did correct myself and followed up by doing the investigation myself after I stated that =P hence the edit. Are you sure of the 100% success rate for bards? If so, essentially the only thing that changed for bards is the 30 feet distance and the mana cost (outside of raids). The only thing it really prevents the bard from doing is dropping aggro during combat. This, in my mind, is very insignificant. It still allows you to pretty much use the ability as it was intended in the first place.
100% success, drops agro every time, even in combat. Only the invis part doesn't work if you're within 30
I see - wow - when they were talking about the invis - I thought they were actually referring to the fade itself. That means even if you are inside the 30 range - if you are quick enough - you can click an instant invis potion and still get the same effect. Well, as long as the mobs don't see invis. So really the only true nerf to this was preventing raiders from dropping aggro on the main boss and increasing the mana cost so you can't spam it across an entire zone. Seems like the nerf is more severe to other classes using it to drop or lower aggro during a raid encounter. I still have a great deal to catch up on from the last few years away, but you guys have been very helpful - thank you.
