DD vs. Dots, Beastlord

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by Romance, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. Romance Augur

    I was bored.

    All of these numbers are based on in game results and will vary slightly from character to character based on AA, Spell Rk, Gear and Buffs.

    Visoracius' Maelstrom Rk. II
    Line 1: 11085 - 31219
    Line 2: 11261 - 30609
    Line 3: 11085 - 31219
    Line 4: 11239 - 29278
    Cast time: 0.5s
    Duration: Instant
    Spell total damage: 44670 - 122325
    Spell DPS: 89340 - 244650

    Frozen Miasma Rk. III
    Line 1: 12972 - 31957
    Line 2: 10873 - 27568
    Cast time: 0.5s
    Duration: Instant
    Spell total damage: 23845 - 59525
    Spell DPS: 47690 - 119050

    Krieg's Bite Rk. III
    Line 1: 22014 - 57274
    Cast time: 0.5s
    Duration: Instant
    Spell damage: 22014 - 57274
    Spell DPS: 44028 -114548

    Kromtus Lance Rk. III (same recast as Kromtus Roar)
    Line 1: 20229 - 52224
    Cast time: 0.5s
    Duration: Instant
    Spell damage: 20229 - 52224
    Spell DPS: 40458 - 104448

    Kromrif Lance Rk. III
    Line 1: 17108 - 45864
    Cast time: 0.5s
    Duration: Instant
    Spell damage: 17108 - 45864
    Spell DPS: 34216 - 91728

    Kromtus Roar Rk. III (same recast as Kromtus Lance)
    Line 1: 16905 - 54349
    Cast time: 0.5s
    Duration: Instant
    Spell damage: 16905 - 54349 (per target)
    Spell DPS: 33810 - 108698 (per target)

    Kirchen's Chill Rk. I
    Line 1: 2671 - 6322 (per tick)
    Cast time: Instant
    Duration: 50 - 60s
    Spell damage: ~40000
    Spell DPS: ~727

    Hemocoraxius' Endemic Rk. III
    Line 1: 2652 - 6778 (per tick)
    Cast time: Instant
    Duration: 80 - 90s
    Spell damage: ~58000
    Spell DPS: ~682

    Glistenwing Blood Rk. I
    Line 1: 2776 - 6574 (per tick)
    Cast time: Instant
    Duration: 50 - 60s
    Spell damage: ~42000
    Spell DPS: ~763

    From these numbers I, personally, think it's very clear that all of our DD's are more dps than our dots and thus will receive spell slot and casting priority.

    The next question that came to my mind was "Can I use both?" There exists a downtime of 2-3 seconds at several points in a casting parse, however, there is another spell that needs to be considered to use in these time periods I think and that is Feralgia. The bigest reason is because it has a recourse effect on you and your pet of a 20% hit mod but also it spawns 1 or 4 pets that deal damage, similar to a dot. Here are a few parses of the swarm pet that spawns from Feralgia

    Krenk's Feralgia Rk. II
    /GU Combat Dummy Caza in 38s, 98k @2567dps --- Romance + pets 98k@(2567 in 38s)
    /GU Combat Dummy Caza in 38s, 111k @2930dps --- Romance + pets 111k@(2930 in 38s)
    /GU Combat Dummy Caza in 37s, 103k @2778dps --- Romance + pets 103k@(2778 in 37s)
    /GU Combat Dummy Caza in 36s, 82k @2288dps --- Romance + pets 82k@(2288 in 36s)

    All of these are a single pet, with no bard aura.

    Looking at the timings of the breaks in spells it might be possible to add in 2-3 dots and still keep the 2 min recourse from Feralgia up but that would be assuming that you do nothing else in combat like casting slow, paragon, fparagon, canni, etc.

    But for fun, I tried it anyways.

    Combat Dummy Caza in 134s, 5755k @42951 --- #1 Romance + pets 5755k@(42951 in 134s)
    Romance -vs- Combat Dummy Caza: -- DMG: 5610716 -- DPS: 41871 -- Scaled: 41871 -- DirDmg: 2351376 -- Punch: 1156677 -- Maul: 908324 -- Crush: 565680 -- DoT: 305879 -- Hit: 280287 -- Bash: 22464 -- Kick: 20029 -- % dmg as normal: 51.9% -- % dmg as critical: 48.1% -- Non-crit rate: 74.9% -- crit rate: 25.1% -- Attempts: 1441 -- Hits: 1345 -- Missed: 96 -- Accuracy: 93.3% -- Avg Hit: 4171 -- Max hit: 61558 -- DMG to PC: 0
    My dps from dots was 2282.

    This is an extremely short parse, I know.

    /GU Combat Dummy Caza in 134s, 5650k @42165 --- Romance + pets 5650k@(42165 in 134s)
    /tell Romance Romance -vs- Combat Dummy Caza: -- DMG: 5509353 -- DPS: 41115 -- Scaled: 41115 -- DirDmg: 2258555 -- Punch: 1272107 -- Maul: 912572 -- Crush: 577364 -- Hit: 297668 -- DoT: 148500 -- Bash: 22509 -- Kick: 20078 -- % dmg as normal: 52.6% -- % dmg as critical: 47.4% -- Non-crit rate: 74.8% -- crit rate: 25.2% -- Attempts: 1413 -- Hits: 1325 -- Missed: 88 -- Accuracy: 93.8% -- Avg Hit: 4158 -- Max hit: 61023 -- DMG to PC: 0
    My dps from dots was 1102 (because of Bite of the Asp, AA)

    But the difference almost unnoticeable.

    This isn't even considering that a dot needs to run it's full duration to gain it's value, or that if you're raiding and you have 3+ necros you're lowering your raids dps because you're eating debuff slots with bad dots, or that you have basically no room on your spell bar for any utility spells, etc. etc.

    Hopefully this is useful.
    Stubar, Kunon, Sancus and 1 other person like this.
  2. ~Mills~ Augur

    Can't stress the bold above enough. People get made and look at you crazy when you tell them at times its bad for the raid to use their dots even if they are 4,000 base damage. Unless a fight is 60 seconds or less its usually a bad idea to use dots in a raid with how precious the debuff slots are.
  3. fortuneteller Augur

    Any beast WHO is using dots are lowering their raid dps. And as such should be given a fine by their raid leader, if they continue to use dots.
  4. Ploww Lorekeeper

    Well wb romance ;)
  5. telechir Elder

    You need to factor in the recast timer on those DD spells to get their actual DPS to compare it the damage potential of the DoTs.

    I know some of those spells have 18 sec to 30 sec recast timers. You may get 100k damage instantly, but if you can't recast it for 30 seconds, your damage potential from that spell is not 100k DPS, it is 100k over 30 seconds until you can nuke again.

    Also, if some of those nukes are combination nukes that may or may not fire off all their parts each time, then adding up all their parts is skewing your numbers even more.
  6. Terroz New Member

    Yes there is a large recast timer on 3 of the nukes, but with the shorter recast timer on the other 2, a Beastlord only has 2-3 seconds between their nuke cycles as Romance already noted above. Yes this does skew the DPS numbers from the original post, but when we're discussing 40000-100000 versus 700 DPS, I'm fairly confident that the post makes its point quite clear.
  7. telechir Elder

    Kromtus Roar Rk. III (same recast as Kromtus Lance)
    Line 1: 16905 - 54349
    Cast time: 0.5s (RECAST TIME 18 seconds; total cycle for this spell is 18.5 seconds if you want to calculate its' DPS to compare it to a DoT.)
    Duration: Instant
    Spell damage: 16905 - 54349 (per target) (I'm going to average this to 35627 since it appears the dot damage was averaged while the DD damage was not, I guess to show those big max numbers. Your DPS for this spell is now 35627 / 18.5 seconds = 1926 DPS. That's the number you need to compare the DPS listed to the dots, not 40k - 100K. Of course, you could chain DDs, but you'd still get locked out on the long recast spells. The shorter recast spells have longer cast times, and you can't melee while casting. The DoTs look to be instant cast.)
    Spell DPS: 33810 - 108698 (per target) (The spell having a 0.5 second cast time does not mean its' DPS is double its' base amount. You cannot cast this spell twice a second.)
  8. Kunon Augur

    The buffs used during the parses wasn't given but... I wouldn't be surprised if casting DoTs actually resulted in a loss of DPS in a full melee DPS group with well timed ADPS during raids. This would be due to lost melee attacks. The ADPS in such groups has little (if any) effect on DoTs while the effect on melee attacks is obvious.
  9. Terroz New Member

    We could throw countless variables into the math and debate it indefinitely, but regardless of exactly how much better DD's are than DoTs, they have proven to be better. So in focusing on the primary purpose of the original post ... using DoTs as a beastlord is not recommended for best self or raid DPS.
  10. Scrible New Member

    My main acct is bugged atm, so logged in an alt, cause I find the conversation interesting.

    By this standard DD's are at minimum equal to dots and at maximum ~35-40% better as you could cast two 30s recast nukes in the time it would take a dot to finish and again, if the mob dies before the dot finishes (which they often do) you get even less value from the dot. A DD always gets full value, it's consistent damage vs. inconsistent damage.

    Beastlords don't get self spell crit rate mods and I didn't have anyone cast any on me, also our dots are instant cast.. so there would be no loss of melee damage. The issue is the global recast timer that dots give, if there was no global recast timer then dots would be viable.

    Dots were averaged because dots in and of them self average out, in order to avg a DD you'd have to know your spell crit rate which I didn't feel like doing so I just shared the spell damage range. At minimum the single line DD's are equal to dots 'if' the dot gets full value, at maximum they're better.

    Don't confuse what I'm saying, I'm not trying to hate on dots, I wish they were better but as they currently stand they're just not a viable avenue to maximize dps.

  11. Scrible New Member

    Ok, I figured out my approx crit rate. The best dot vs the worst DD looks like this.
    Glistenwing Blood @ 763dps (crit rate is already rolled into this)
    31s = 23653
    61s = 46543
    92s = 70196
    122s = 93086
    Kromrif Lance @ 29.8% crit rate (~25677ea.)
    31s = 51354
    61s = 77031
    92s = 102708
    122s = 128385

    For me, the avg dmg on Kromrif Roar Rk. III per target would be ~28063. Roar is actually better than the lances even in single target damage due to it's faster recast timer.
  12. Scrible New Member

    As damage is measured per seconds it's hard to measure damage in 1/2 seconds, so basically the dps value is what you would need to be doing via other means to make that spell not worth casting.
  13. Scrible New Member

    Honestly my original hope was to find a way fit dots in so that they might increase dps but I'm not finding a way.
  14. Khauruk Augur

    That's correct. They can be useful for cold-immune mobs, but that is the only time. There are enough DDs that you have no proper time to cast them, and the longer spell gem grey-out time kills a bit more of their dps potential.
    Scrible likes this.
  15. Gatash Lorekeeper

    Purely for a hypothetical to this end, I would imagine that any gains could only be obtained through tying DoTs to melee skills that fire immediately afterwards to negate the cooldown. If you duplicated one of your existing hotkeys that fires melee-based skills and added the DoT to the first line of the duplicated hotkey, then move everything else down one line. You could open the fight with the duplicated one and then go back to your regular one for the rest of the fight. It would kinda be as though you added a 50K melee hit (if the fight lasted the duration).

    This means that you no-longer view a DoT as a 1.5 second spell to cast, because you're using useful skills in the cooldown period. The gains would be small and it's really a case of just curiosity to see if you can squeeze that tiny extra bit. But, maybe it's something to try?
  16. Romance Augur

    I think I understand what you're saying but not 100% sure, but this is what I gathered.

    That's already being done, but with DD's
    I have 4 multibinds that I spam non stop
    1. Nukes
    2. Feral swipe
    3. Bite of the asp (or) gorilla smash
    4. Beastial Evulsing Rk. III + Tempest of Claws Rk. III + Maul Rk. III + Roaring Strike + Kick

    This makes 12 keys (one hotbar.)

    So when a nuke is on cooldown, melee abilities are going off. Though honestly they're not very fast cooldowns save kick, so mostly it's just melee between recast timers.
  17. Stubar Augur

    Bottom line is...DoTs are bad mmmkay.

    I made a post a while back saying that to make DoTs viable for a beastlord to use they would have to do about 40-50k a tick. That's taking into consideration global cool-downs, resists, and focuses. Just don't see that happening.
  18. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    But sir, you forgot hybrid dot's most crucial function: blocking buff slots on raid mobs to screw with necromancer's ability to deeps. For this they are invaluable!
    Iila and Sancus like this.
  19. Romance Augur

    Your parse included procs with bloodlust running, it'd be much lower than 40-50k per tick.

    Avg dmg for Kromrif (old) Lance 25677/30.5 =841.86dps, so each tick would need to avg. ~5051 to match old lance, really they'd need to be a bit better than this to be useful for several reason already mentioned above.

    If each of our dots we're 45k per tick, that would be 7.5kdps per dot, so 22.5k for all 3. Combined with 4 other DD's looks like another 15kdps + self + pet sustained. That'd be way over tuned. I imagine if they we're avging ~7-8k per tick they could find a spot in our group line ups, meaning the mob would need to live for 3 ticks in order to get the value of the old lance from the time the dot is cast.
  20. Stubar Augur

    Did it? I coulda swore that I didn't use BL for that reason.