Daybreak Remove FFA on Both Servers

This a the number that would have some actual meaning.

My contention is the vast majority simply do not bother to be bothered with the "dps brah" mentality. I know my guild simply will not bother... not because we cant but because of the toxic nature and immaturity associated with this type of thing.

This is the crux of the issue that some seem to not want to see.

Qft
People seem to believe that players who don't want dps racing mobs feel they are "entitled" to loot handouts. That's not true!
Players that pay subs (myself included) feel that by paying a sub we are "entitled" to playing and enjoying a game with like minded individuals that are just looking for a good time. I believe that this is what creates longevity in terms of population on a server.
If you have a minority of the population, running into the middle of a guild event with middle fingers extended, screaming "All your fun belongs to us!" well, that's not how you keep people around, quite the opposite. This has been the pattern on the last few servers, it never works out!
That's why I was for instanced content, not because I wanted a handout.
When people talk about entitlement I always wonder what makes players feel that they are entitled to act like they've been thrown the keys to the server and can do what they want, whenever they want, regardless of how many players it affects.

Should've instanced from the beginning!

I'm curious, why is your "good time" reliant upon getting the best loot? The game has a lot to offer for those that don't want to raid, too.

This looks like one of those ridiculous "raiders shouldn't get better gear than groupers!" lines of reasoning, where they demand equal everything because "they pay for a sub, too!!!". The game needs to have tiers of stuff to do based on time invested, skill, classes, social circles, etcetc. Otherwise you get a one dimensional Hello Kitty Iskand Adventure that no one in their right mind wants to play.

(I don't raid on TLP and would choosing instancing if able)

I agree that things should of probably been instanced from the beginning. The problem is that wasn't the point of this thread. The point, as I understood it, the OP was making was to get rid of FFA.
To which I still haven't seen a good argument that is well thought out as to why FFA targets are bad for the server.

That being said I don't think the OP really cared about fairness it seemed much more like a troll to get a thread going just so he could sit back at work and read the forums for a laugh.

I believe that maybe this is the case more so since he stopped posting in this thread quite a few pages back. Also, the OP never really put forth an idea to solve the current discussions the leadership has been working hard for compromise that works for everyone.

With so little wiggle room for raiding instancing might be the solution, but I have a feeling the money they make isn't enough to justify the investment it would take for them at the moment.

For us we are fans but for them they are a business and its more about money than about happy customers. The cynic in me looks at it as pure utility calculations of maximum profit based on numbers from log in times crunched thru some formula they use to gage the life the server is going to have.

/tin foil hat on

I find it amazing every time they seem to be nearing the end of a payment cycle for people and their krono is about to wane. Suddenly new features for ease of life just happen to be implemented, and promise to make the experience better. new pet nerfs that were not be possible to implement for example. just saying

/tin foil hat off

anyways, the focus of this thread was the removal of FFA targets and still no one can make a clear argument as to how they actually make the server a worse place. I would like to think the point I have made in favor of FFA show how it is a "good" to players on the server but then again that opinion not fact based. I am not really sure you could show with numbers FFA targets actually hurt the server. Short of showing massive account cancelations which we know isn't happening since lockjaw has more and more players everyday.

Seriously, I have run into at least two people who started up on lockjaw this week and didn't even know TLP was going on.

seomen ~ faceless

It's not. It has less to do with loot and more to do with players inability to co-exist on the same server.
I thought I explained why it wasn't about a handout I guess it wasn't clear enough.
If it looks like one of those ridiculous "raiders shouldn't get better gear than groupers!" lines of reasoning, where they demand equal everything because "they pay for a sub, too!!!" then you're reading it wrong or you're assuming that the only reason I play the game is for phat loot (which is also wrong).

For the game to have tiers of stuff to do then it would have to be a different game instead of throwing us all together and expecting us to get along. I think we both agree that we need some form of separation within the game though, even if we can't agree that instancing would of offered that separation.

To Roshen, Holly, et al.,

I'm proposing the Freedom of Rotation Information Act (FORIA) regarding the discussions surrounding rotations that take place among leaders on both servers.

While it is only a select few who get to argue these decisions and see what really goes on behind the scenes, these are discussions that affect everyone on both servers who intend to raid. We as "citizens" of the server have every right to access discussion logs/recordings regarding how our raid schedules and play time are being affected. An element of transparency is necessary to ensure fair and appropriate decisions are being made in these discussions.

For this reason, I ask that Daybreak Games requires that all discussion logs and/or recordings of meetings between guild leaders be accessible by all players and linked in the opening post of the Rotation threads.

I find it highly disconcerting that secret cabal made up of only a handful of players are able to dictate how I can play the game.

The Ragefire council have posted logs of the discussion and also minutes for a condensed version. They are posted on the Ragefire forum in the leaders section

I have the Lockjaw recording. If everyone involved agrees to allow me to share it, I certainly will.

Minutes

• Dima (Gulfein) tells everyone that he is the Guild Leader of Citizen the top raiding guild (only guild left) on Fippy, that he "crushed" TL and this isn't his first rodeo.
• Everyone else rolls their eyes and moves on to stuff we're there to talk about.
• Who can vote to change the rotation? Dima says everyone! Everyone else says only guilds actually on the rotation.
• What is a majority? Apparently a majority is when more want a than want b. TIL!
• Dima once again reminds of the first point.
• Faceless Insanity hate.
• How often should we have these meetings? Darth says never again. Everyone else says no more than once a month. Once a month wins. Darth takes three shots of Southern Comfort, smooth Kentucky Bourbon.
• Dima's explains his new rotation system, adds in that it's "best for the server" cause (repeats the first bullet point) and someone asks to hear Darth's.
• Darth explains 24 hour windows for guilds that actually need them to be able to see content, suggests 24/7 guilds compete and that since they've doubled the spawn rates a 50/50 division doesn't actually hurt anyone.
• We vote whether to keep the current rotation, or make changes. Making changes wins.
• We debate how much FFA the new rotation needs. AD says ZERO cause lol why not? MM says 7 to 1 cause lol it's not Efreeti camp. The casual guilds say 4 to 1, MIM adds that they want to know what the kill window will be before they vote cause it's tied to that.
• Darth motions we discuss kill windows and combine the two into one vote. This passes.
• AD and MM want 3 hours. PoFE wants 2-4 hour windows and leave due to work. Darth says nay to you would be schemers, that window doesn't help the casual guilds. So I demand Unlimited Windows! This is apparently excessive, so Darth calms down a bit and goes with a very "Modest" 24 hour window. DHS, TFM, and MIM vote for 24 Hour windows, and agree to a 3 to 1 FFA ratio.
• Angels rejoice cause we're done right?
• Nope.
• MM Modestly suggest terms and conditions on the use and procurement of FFA targets to include additional windows of engage, bat signals to all guilds, and other such things. DHS and TFM shout this nonsense down with declarations of "FFA is FFA if you want, go get it."
• Talks begin on how to keep guilds from rolling alt guilds, splitting, passing rotation mobs to a parent guild, how something goes FFA if it's up 24 hours,with engages, no engages, double engages, what if a guilds decides it's impossible, can they tip off another guild, must batphone all guilds, personally call Dima and let him know so he's not at a disadvantage. Can we trade to someone else? Only before it spawns, must have a third party witness. Darth tries to shoot himself with the only bullet he brought, is to drunk and misses, makes note to bring second bullet on September 15th, penalty for not trading or engaging a target before your window to do so closes, who writes it up, keep the colors? When does it go into effect, 72 hours, conflicting rules.
• More Darth and Faceless hate.
• Darth finishes off bottle of Southern Comfort, cries over lack of second bullet.
• Additional stuff not important or conducive to the entire reason of the meet.
• Meeting finishes on a vote to wait for a final write up to finally vote to accept the new write up, confusion over whether the 72 hours starts now, or after the final write up is agreed upon by majority.
• Done, but no one wants to leave in case people keep talking about it. Darth leaves anyway.

The end!
Faceless cares <3

This account is actually surprisingly accurate minus a pinch of trolling.

If you want to be involved, create a guild and attend!

Darth's account is better than what I would have written up, and looks spot on. For those of you morally opposed to Cliff Notes, the 5 hour audio recording should suit you.

Nobody is intentionally being excluded. And I agree with the first poster that more information be made available to any who are interested. A transcript would exhaust the bandwidth caps of most people, as will the audio file. But if you have a 30TB drive and a lot of time then go for it.

Um a guild that is capable of fielding a credible raid force, and has an online presence. Right?

Should have been some sort of agreement between the 3 hrs and 24, 24 is excessive. The mob can literally re spawn in that window. I think 6 8 or at max 12 would have been plenty.

otherwise its not bad, still got some competition in there.

Lol Darth, that made me laugh.

Yes! Facebook Groups count right?!

Darth's account is more or less accurate. A bit of sarcasm and a few jabs at Dima thrown in there to make it a more entertaining read but otherwise a pretty accurate summary of how the meeting went. It was like a 4 hour meeting; as noted by Darth, I had to leave about half way through so I could go to work.

I personally don't have any issues with making recordings of the meetings publicly available but as noted there was probably about 20ish people in on that meeting and whether or not we will be recording these chats and posting them for others to hear was not discussed and therefor many people were of the assumption that these meetings were "private". I'm not sure how easy it would be to get consent from all of the other attendees to make this chat available but I am in favor of discussing whether or not we should make recordings of all leader chats available going forward.

That said; all of you people that are really pushing for these chats because you believe there is some kind of conspiracy or whatever will be very disappointed. The chats are kind of boring and spending 4 hours listening to it isn't going to reveal any kind of scandal you guys seems to assume there is.

What that comment directed at our guild? We actually have opened up a new guild forum like a week or so ago after settling into Lockjaw after transferring over from Ragefire. Not too many post there yet and it's primarily in Chinese but some people, like myself, do create posts in English. Also half of the boards are hidden to non-guild members.

http://pof.cocobohouse.com/index.php

I know it's sarcasm but that pretty much sums up the "take FFA away movement" on this and other threads. Just replace the last sentence with "I deserve it because I paid for a subscription also.".

Time for bad analogy game!

You understand, that there are tons of people in this world, that have the same "Job Title", but their experience is vastly different, and that a minority will always be "The best" because they "Try hard(er)" yes?

For instance, you can be a "bartender". However, If you work at some hole in the wall dive bar, you may only make 30-35k a year(Being generous actually). But if you work somewhere like a high end club, or on a cruise liner, or a casino, that number skyrockets to upwards of 110k a year(Yes, I know a casino bartender that made 105k last year, and no, I wasn't even close.) or more? Do they technically do the same job? Yes, and I'm sure the HITW bartender could maybe handle themselves in a higher end environment(OR not, most hole in the wall bartenders get trashed with their customers), however, they are not even remotely the same job.

The reason I'm using this example is because High End Bartenders are the extreme minority. Hell, even some major cities have very FEW bartenders that are worth the money they make(New Orleans is terrible for example, for every good bartender, there are 25 bad ones). However, when a new business opens and want their drink menu to be good, they bring in the same higher end bartenders and mixologists to create said menu, and to train their staff. Theres a reason John Taffert makes so much money for doing what he does.


So, just because you're a *raider* doesn't mean you should see the same exactly things that another *Raider* may see. Why? Because if you have a *Raider* who isn't willing to wake up at 3am to kill a FFA mob, then why should he benefit vs the *Raider* that is willing to wake up at 3am? You don't become an incredible(And make way more money doing so) bartender by slinging bud lights all night. You do it at 3am in the morning when you're practicing with your bottles on how to put on a show for customers, and working with your pour spouts to get pours down perfectly. If a *raider* is going to wake up at 3am and raid, and you're not, why do you feel entitled to the same *Pay(Read: amount of loot)" that he would receive?