Content cannot be defined by the top 10%

So as not to derail a thread on a totally different topic I am moving this discussion here.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...petition-bans-bots.220576/page-3#post-3221124

I said the content should accommodate the majority of players. I am sorry you have so little regard for their gaming abilities.

No idea what all this talk of trophies is about and I never said anything about things not having to be won. You are making up too much here . But "THE MAJORITY" of the players should be able to handle all the group content. Making group content for the top 10% is just silly.

Again no idea of what you are talking about when you say everyone succeeding and accomplishment. The majority of the players should be able to succeed and accomplish group content. You already have raids that many cant do Battleaxe stop being so greedy about content. Already there are raids you do that many can't and now you want group content exlcusive to the 10% I mean stop it guys

Battleaxe you are not a casual player. I doubt you have ever been a casual player. I on the other hand have run a very successful casual/family guild for over 15 years. So I figure I might have more of a handle on the casual game then you. Just a bit maybe. People pay for raid content that they don't do now you want to add new group content that they can't do just to satisfy your gaming abilities? Greedy or what?

And also be aware I haven't said anything about making anything easier then it is. I think group content is in range of casual players now. I am against adding PoW level content to every expansion as someone else mentioned but I assume you read that in my posts.

Please feel free to exaggerate what I say some more and we can keep talking.

Then I bet you hate TDS.

Hmm...... not really.. six boxed the progression without [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] during the first month of the expansion then helped others get through parts of it. The majority of the players should be able to get through it with a bit of help they just aren't overly interested in it. A lot of it probably has to do with all the bad press it got on release. Sometimes casuals need a few tries on parts of TDS progression but it is doable.

You also have to remember that this part of the discussion wasn't about what we already have it was about someone wanting PoW difficulty level stuff added to each expansion for the very top skilled (and mostly raid geared) players. Existing difficulty is fine in EQ. I am against them adding harder stuff that the majority of players won't be able to do as part of regular expansions.

we need a learning curve.

casual content is fine, hardcore content is fine, nothing in-between isn't... of course, when people go from the snoozefest Gribble's HA's to PoWar, they will be unhappy....

EQ isn't exactly a fast-paced intense game... quite the opposite... group content is mostly balanced around 3 people + 3 merc using less than 50% of their potential.

I agree with the above poster as well as the OP. The thing is, don't you guys believe that this game has actually IMPROVED in catering to the upper 10 pct since years ago? I believe the learning curve is not as steep as it once was (and it can never be as it was in 1999-2000, because that just is not what the game is nowadays), and it is significantly easier to catch a toon up given good social skills and friendships being established.

With that said, when new content IS released, I would hope that there would be new, profitable opportunities that are not lazily copy/pasted from a previous expacs mold. I've read threads on these boards about potentially adding 8-15 new zones like previous big expacs did with 0-2 raids occurring in these new zones. It would be fun to explore again, and while TDS group progression did afford some new adventures, the general consensus has been from the "average" player that TDS was too time consuming as well as difficult. There has to be some way to supply top end gamers with exciting new raid content as well as getting casual groupers something to do as well.

followed directly by:

A fantastic example of hypocrisy.

All of this talk about greed and "the 10%" is completely missing the point about content development, so let me try and ground this thread in reality before it gets too out of hand ...

A player is looking for something fun to do in their spare time, some entertainment, and they're generally happy to pay some coin to whoever provides that entertainment. There is no distinction between a casual or hardcore player, it's a simple definition that applies to every player.

Daybreak's return on their investment is maximised if every player purchases the expansion and maintains their subscription until the next expansion is released. The obvious way to do this, given the above definition, is to ensure every player in the game consistently has something fun to do. (The not so obvious thing is how to do this with a budget constraint).

Importantly, for Corwyhn, that is not the same thing as "the majority of the players should be able to succeed and accomplish group content." It doesn't make sense to try and frame things like that.

And Battleaxe is right - "game content ... should accommodate the barely capable and the very advanced", all under that banner of "ensuring every player in the game consistently has something fun to do".

What's wrong with making a small portion of the group content challenging? Why does all group content need to be targeted at the lowest common denominator? Why can't you respect the abilities and wants of those that are more skilled than the average player?

Why should it be doable by everyone? Why can there not be stretch goals for people? Things to ohh and ahh over? Why can't 10% of the content be targeted at 10% of the players?

You do realize there are a large number of the above average players that do not raid, right? Raiding is less about skills (you have to be competent and follow directions) than it is about being able to commit to a schedule. Lots of people with jobs and families cannot commit to raid guild schedules that for the most part favor east coast people. What content do you propose the west coast players looking for a challenge do?

I do think you have a unique perspective and do a great job of advocating for the lower tier players. I also think you're skewed and do not see the entire picture of the player base. You seem to see your demographic and then skip straight to the highly dedicated top end raider without seeing all those in the middle and upper tier of the group game I know a lot of people in that range that are also paying and not getting the content they desire.

It's in range of of casual players now because it is all trivial and easy. That's the complaint. We have T1 and T2 zones in TDS that are useless because T3 was designed for everyone. We're wasting dev resources creating something that provides no reward and no purpose beyond a progression speed bump. Make the high end harder and target the middle tier at the average gamer. They still get content and so do those that want a challenge all within the same budget. I'd love to have a zone that targets 2 groups of average players that 1 good group can also do. There's no reason why a large casual guild should not be able to get 2 groups of people together to go do something with great rewards. Meanwhile higher tier players can go and do it with fewer people. Would that not be a win/win?

please don't release the kraken

This .. x 1,000 ..

And for those of us who actually enjoy challanges their SHOULD .. be a challange for us as well.

A challenge to an extent only. We have so many examples of 'content' that the Devs themselves was underutilized because those who were seeking these 'challenges' felt it wasn't worth their time.

The Devs make content for the masses, not the lowest common denominator and not the highest/fastest to chew through content folks either.

I hate to say it but I agree with Battleaxe. I am a player who has been a casual noob to being an advanced player. I think the problem with todays game is a feeling on entitlement that everyone should have everything. I quite frankly hate it and this is coming from a guy that when EQ was hyper competitive to get the very best loot did not have it. I felt inspired by it. The group game and the raid game are very different to what they used to be with instancing. A raider in old eq was someone who put alot more time into their game and consequently got something awesome out of it. I remember back on my days on Mith Marr meeting Xarn Yum Chai Afterlifes Botb paladin ( I had a few pieces of ss armor and considered it uber!) and just drooling over his gear. I found no problem that I could not have it but felt inspired to meet one of the most prolific paladin server wide at the time. He was a very polite and gave me alot of good pointers!

I got bored of raiding a long time ago even though its where you get the best gear. Partaking in raids where your raid force does not have to perform optimally is very boring. Comparing modern content to DoDH or Solteris or EP god fights is a joke. I actually get alot of enjoyment from playing in a smaller group where individual committment counts, but asides from PoW (Whose namers were not probably doable at level by a single group in group gear) there was no content that catered for me, so at the moment I am not paying Daybreak any money A - Duo to uninispiring content B - Due to no special 'unattainable' items to really interest me and C - (Which is off topic) Pure melee are just unbearably broken at the moment.

Battleaxe is correct in that the upper percentile be it in the group or raid game must be accomodated. It gives those hardcore players something to do and it gives learning enthusiastic players a chance to up their game and it gives less talented players something to aspire to. This game is rather simple and anyone I believe has the potential to be good at it. Casual players can still engage with this content, but they will most likely repeatedly fail, but in doing so they will get better and better over time. That was the old spirit of EQ was learning to be a better player and learning from those around you. Im sick of content that can be ran over by Johnny3box or a group of slobberers with the token autofire ranger thinking that is how to do optimal dps. I want to see at least one zone that caters for top groupers and one raid that caters for the upper percentile of raiders. For me the most irritating thing I hear is the attititude that I paid for an expansion and its not fair if I cant finish it.

My ideal group zone would be an open dungeon that is massive with many camps, some interesting random trash drops and some awesome gear dropping all round the dungeon so you would have to end up visiting all of it. Everything no drop with 2 min corpse timers to discourage farming and selling. There would be packs of mobs that require decent CC and have features like strong AEs' Random Targeted debuffs or attacks, that can mez players and require interruption and can use super damage shields and silences. Mobs where you and your party have to look at your plethera of abilities and actually thinkg about using them and co-ordinating abilities to win. Named can be placed to really test a groups abilities to the limit. Obviously players in raid gear may find it easier, but given the raid game is what it is not all the gear would interest them. One of the best examples of a Pre PoW hardcore group zone was the revamp of CT when it first went live. That was a very tough zone with some awesome rewards.

Please list these examples so I can add them to my to-do list, thereby nullifying your comment and also giving me something cool to do

Thanks!

CHALLENGE SUPER MLG PRO MOVE #1: Solo the King Odeen raid in Valdeholm.

I miss Xarn! One of the most fun and craziest people to group with ever. Even if he was a bit of a gnomophile....

The funniest part this thread is everyone keeps saying what content they want. This first campaign will appear to cater to all walks of life. Let's test the heck out of it to ensure it does just that instead of the same mission across different difficulties.

Having 1 or 10 or 50 people only explore this 'content' doesn't make it utilized enough. Need a lot more than that. So unfortunately you alone won't matter to the outcome.

So, no examples?

A challenge.

We have so many examples of players who are challenge adverse that devs themselves have noted some players gravitate to greatest rewarding for the least amount of effort/risk possible no matter what. Devs practically have to eliminate rewards to force these players out of easy mode.

A game requiring effort, with risk of failure, and rewards based on RvR can not present the same mission to those "needing" (by this I mean wanting the result but not wanting to make the effort) to catch up and those well beyond trivial challenge. A game that was all Gribble HA's is a Gribble game. One that was all PoW and instanced so you couldn't bring in more than one group at a time would be perhaps too exclusive.

A range where some content bores teh ubers and other content is beyond the average "C student" is needed. Perhaps you've skied? If you want a mass product you offer both - not just bunny trails nor all 3 Black Diamond. (Happy to fix that for you.)

Design so "C" students gets "A's" and you've designed a "C" product. Elitists who want everything as hard as nails and those involved with casual family style guilds and wanting sandbox with a veneer of "challenge" are both wrong for requesting exclusivity.

the effort is above many who want the same reward that others who do make effort get. THAT INCLUDES the casual players who do enjoy the challenge, there are many "casual" players who do not see the gimme gime for 0 effort and please make it mind numbingly easy. So over the sense of entitlement most have go out and do work. or play WoW.

How would one person doing content somehow nullify Crystal's comment?