Not sure what conflicts could exist as it should just overwrite or be overwritten by another root. I also can't see how this version is better than having them overwrite eachother Can you ask for a reason why they won't make this change temporarily? I already did but I suspect he missed it as it was right around the time he realized he had to go shopping.
Even if it is on the coder list it could be on there for ever so we should lobby for it to be changed until coders actually get to it
There were some good things brought in yesterday. We got some things that will help the class. But, as I said yesterday, Grandeur is ok. It isn't great. It is exactly half of one skill a bard has. How does that equal the desirability of a bard? It does nothing to affect our utility in melee heavy groups, whether group or raid. It makes it so in caster heavy groups, you aren't automatically 2nd class. In mixed or melee heavy, still 2nd class. This isn't about wanting more, its about wanting parity. Can I get groups? Yea, I have a pretty steady number of people that I group with and don't have much problems in that area. I was able to get groups when I was leveling up this past year, though sometimes it took awhile. It took less time as people got to know me and how I could play my class. But none of that is the point. Given the standard group of tank/healer/dps/dps/dps there is a 6th slot. If you are making an ideal group, this 6th slot will go to a) support role or b) another dps. Currently, there are two support role classes, bard and enchanter. Given the choice of any class for that 6th slot when looking at efficiency, hands down the ranking is 1) bard 2) another dps 3) enchanter. If the first 3 dps are all wizards and mages, we can come close to providing enough efficiency to tie having a 4th dps. Remove one wizard or mage and replace with any other dps class, our numbers drop. The raid game is even worse. I doubt there is more than 1 guild in the top 50 raid guilds that has any room for another enchanter. And that's with most of them having a max of two on the roster. And as for your taking a low shot, I've been playing an enchanter since '99. I played through the days of the holy trinity and I hated it. I have no desire to go back there and have to listen to friends that can't get groups because there aren't enough enchanters or clerics or warriors to go around. So, while its sad, I'm ok with the way content is designed to lessen the need for mesmerize spells in most places. But the pendulum has swung to far away, and now we are just an extra. We are the kid no one really likes, but they don't want to hurt our feelings so they let us hang out. Sure, we can get groups. Doesn't mean we are ideal or even a good fit in most of them. Why should I be happy we stopped short of what was needed to address this imbalance? I have been kicking myself since last night for going along.
Because sometimes you have to play the game and wait out the short term for the long term goal, we can't ask for everything and expect to have it now. Get Grandeur in the code, then it's much easier to be modified. The imbalance in the game goes way beyond the enchanter class; it's an issue with all casters v. melee and this isn't something new. There was no "low blow" taken. You remember PoP, GoD, and OoW and how the game started to "change" during those times. Sure, everyone would love to have solo, group, and raid content *require* chanters, but other classes feel that way as well. Having Grandeur in the code is x100 more then what we had last year, three years, ten years ago. I mean, we asked for almost everything that was discussed on the boards, and now that it's done there's this sense of "oh they didn't do enough, I'm sad". Is there always more that can be done? Yes. To get chanters on the same level as other classes takes much more then just aa's, and the game just isn't going that direction. If we REALLY want it to be that way, something needs to go to work for them because content is needed to push chanters. Everything has to be taken in account, including the state of the game and the direction it's going. If there's one class that's most affected by content changes, it's enchanters. I don't for one second regret what was asked, accepted and denied, it's a process (if you aren't happy, you should be working on your "to do" list now)
This is not a new problem, it started in pop when people realized that a bard can bring mana regen, haste, fast pulling and CC all in one package. We went from 5 tells to join a group in the first 30 seconds we log on to only grouping with friends that took a pity to us. I been explaining the problem for an extremely long period of time, and almost every year they been giving us something new that did increase our power level but never did they give us something that would effected our number one problem since PoP, which is a low desirability by melee toons to group with us. So once again we will get a new toy, and yes I am sure pet groups would enjoy having that buff, but those groups already enjoyed having us in the group. But the majority of groups are not centered around a pet tank but a melee tank and it is those types of groups we need to get into and this buff will do very little. we do not need to work on a do list, since that do list has been out since late PoP, but they just been ignoring it for all those years.
I'm sorry guys, I don't agree with you one bit. Did you not raid in TSS, TBS, or even SoD? If you did, you can not sit there and tell me how the enchanter class "lacked" in the raid game, not one bit. In GoD if you didn't have an enchanter, you DIDN'T raid...period. And, without an enchanter, most groups struggled to get through content, that's how much the class was needed. We can't sit here and blame bards for every issue we have, while at the same time begging to have the skills they do. Do I like the thoughts of developers thinking that bards should be melee only and chanters caster only? Hell to the no. It's their game, their vision, and our only way to match that vision is to get as close to what we want as we can. For a decade, enchanters shined (not in dps areas) and it was due to one simple skill; mez. Now, content is less dependent on it so the change in skills reflect this. I'm sorry if you can't see what the future of Grandeur may hold, I'm not stuck in a near sighted stance on this. Again, so many topics were covered in http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/the-chanters-realm.654/ and http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/i...-you-attending-the-irc.2257/page-3#post-32629 that if you don't feel what you think is something important to the class, it's YOUR fault. There will be another AA IRC next year, try to get into it you missed this years (I joined while at work fyi). Some things were said no, it happens...That list you have, from PoP, most of it is worthless now. This game has changed so0o much that many of the issues we had back then have been replaced with others. If you want to offer benefits to melee in groups, you have to start somewhere. Feel free to ask next year for a massive boost to melee aDPS and forget the fact they said no to additional auras; maybe they will let us start twisting songs. We offer something to tanks NO other class can come close to matching, so not sure what the concern is with being centered around an actual tank instead of a pet tank. So tell me...what is it you want? Some want Wizard type dps, some want bard type aDPS, hell some wanted heals. You say mez isn't a big deal anymore to you, then what is? Pulling?
You have four classes that can slow a mob, all four of those classes can also haste a group, but only three of the four classes bring a buff that helps melee in a burn. When the majority of groups are centered around melee classes, and 3 of the 4 support classes have short duration buffs that increase burn dps, why would any group leader want to invite the one support class that can not increase melee dps in a burn. Most group leaders are either the tanks or the puller, which are melee classes, which is why we need to be concerned about an actual tank vs a pet tank. Real people have input in selecting who gets into a group next, pets do not. We are competing against 3 other support classes when it comes to joining a group, and just look at what those classes bring to the table for a burn against names. I did add we need something for melee but once again it was ignored and was not placed on your list.
For the issues with "tanks" (however one defines that), enchanters offer the best damage mitigation of any class with our runes. There's one big hurdle you are refusing to acknowledge when saying enchanters need something for melee; what the game developers want for the enchanter class. That is, the caster equal of what bards are. If you think you can pitch to them to give chanters melee aDPS at the level that bards have been working towards for years, have at it. You can't go from zero to super, there has to be a starting point. I also disagree with most group leaders being either tanks or pullers (which could be you pulling) because ANYONE can start a group. If there's an issue with real people choosing to leave you out, maybe it's not all based on what the class has to offer. If the others in the group happen to be casters, then it's VERY beneficial for them to pick you up. I've seen many of groups that consist of Mage, Mage, Mage, Wizard, Necro, guess which one of those "four" best fits into that group? You can say that majority of groups center around melee, but that's opinion and would be the same if I said all groups are centered around 5 clerics in a group. I've been in groups with all tanks/melee and they loved the xp/rune aura. I've been in all caster groups. YOU have to define which type of play style you want in and find people to fit that mold. Again, with getting Grandeur into code it's possible to ask for melee components later. There was quite a few enchanters in the IRC and not one asked in the main chat nor brought much up about it in the #chanter channel. Even then, at the end of the chat the Mages were making him mad so it would have been a NO probably anyways. Here are the things you said about additions for melee: Haste is not enough of a draw to get Enchanters high on the list for group invites and this is where we need to improve the class, giving us something that makes the melee go," I WANT AN ENCHANTER." Nothing specific, no data to work with. So you said we need something for melee then wanted someone else to put it together? No ones is going to disagree that this wouldn't be ideal, I'd be fine with it. Again the main issue is with the vision of the class by those who create it. Honestly, the bard class is one of EQ's prime achievements. No other game has a bard put together like an EQ bard, and it's taken a LONG time for them to get to this point. You'd be more successful trying to get the caster aDPS removed from their class, because that's what I see the devs doing honestly... Stagnation of their future caster aDPS for enchanters to be boosted.
Suggesting that an enchanter would be sitting there runeing the entire time is silly. Sure on some named fights I use runes. Other than that? Not at all. Runes are not enough for a tank to say let's lower melee dps by 25-30% in order to prevent 15k damage on some specific named mobs that we could take without the rune.
so much negativity in this thread, Nancy is turning over in her grave. There has been ample notification and many conversations on what the class needs or wants spread across various threads. Most of those things were brought into the chats in some form or another. You reach a point where you have to ask yourself am I part of the problem or the solution? At the tail end of SoD my main class was in terrible shape as many of the premier class abilities had stagnated into nothingness. Since then I've taken the initiative to organize threads, submit ideas, join serverwide chats, chat up people on fan sites and talk to random paladins in game. I'm not saying any of this to brag or act like a big deal but rather to emphasize the notion that: If something isn't getting done for my class - I don't find myself sitting around feeling like I need to blame other people for their efforts and lack of results (specifically the results I want to see done with my class). Instead I am grateful that they joined in as part of the community to brainstorm, discuss and organize. This wasn't an exclusive chat. Elidroth specifically conducted them outside of beta to allow everyone an opportunity to join in this year. If something didn't get completely arranged or agreed to in accordance to your liking blame yourself and let Negative Nancy rest peacefully in the afterlife. And then recommit to putting forth the effort to see your/the communities desire for your class come to fruition.
Your absolutely right Fyre, if you go in asking for nothing but garbage they'll fill up your can for you, the only thing added was upgrades that should have happened anyway (other than an AE lurch) will the upgrades add any desire for the class.....not a chance
You have a cleric talk for you guys... Honestly you guys got fubared. I've agreed with what Jerus and most of the bards have stated, chanters should be giving their groups bigger ADPS gains, both sustained and temporary. Bards are still no#1 for casters, it's just silly. Most bards hate being in caster groups. Why not just give enchanters the bard Aria aura?
I agree several of us chanters were pushing for more ADPS for melee groups. There was a very vocal minority yelling that we shouldn't ask for too much too fast though. Apparently they felt if we asked for too much we wouldn't get anything at all. I think our 'baffler's aura' line should be almost exactly like Aria. As to what class Mykaylla is, she still did a good job and she seems to have a very sound knowledge of both the chanter class and enough sense to phrase things to Eli in a way that gets things done.
Just go and read the old board, I been saying the same thing for many years now, that we need something in the group game that melee will want. In fact I have said in the past we should get the same aDPS buffs as bards, but not as strong and they do not stack with the bard version. I would be happy with a buff line that is 80 percent as strong as the bard version, which will allow the bard to remain as king of aDPS increase, but would increase our desirability for the group game. And seriously you want to compare our runes that we can cast on a tank, to the buffs that the other three support classes can bring like AC, HP, damage shields and even some very good heals, all three of the other support classes bring more to killing a named, then we do even when you remove the melee dps buffs.
First off this is not about me, because I started to box a long time ago, when I seen the writing on the wall, but someone needs to speak for the SILENT MAJORITY so I try my best to do that. I see enchanters logging on and going LFG all the time, and then log to an alt to play, because most groups do not need them, even guild groups. I know that Soe vision for enchanters is not to give us aDPS abilities for melee, which is also the reason I think they made both charming and to some extent pulling easier for us. But this is the key, the majority of enchanters did not pick the class to pull or charm, it is something they do not enjoy doing. I really do not understand why Soe is having such a hard time understanding that the majority of the enchanter community do not enjoy pulling and charming, and you can tell this by how few of us do these activities. And before you turn it on me, I dinged level 60 a long time ago by pulling for my groups in sebilis and then velk lab, but these days I do prefer to use my monk because it is faster and easier. As for charming, in Voa I was looking for a mob to charm in the temple and after asking many enchanters, I log in the enchanter server wide channel and asked, and not a single enchanter knew the answer. This was late in Voa and not a single enchanter I asked knew, which would indicate that even with how easy charming is these days, the average enchanter does not enjoy having a pet that can turn on you at any time. Just look around and you will find a ton of SK, who are the best group tank in the game, to me that would indicate that a large percentage of the groups are centered around a heavy tank. Soe has stated that the heavy tank to be the main tank in the game, which is why you see so few light tanks doing the job like they used to in the old days. And if Soe wanted pets to be a true alternative tank, they would allow pets to hold aggro even when people are in melee range. How well a group pet tanks does change from expansion to expansion, which is why we need to be balanced around a group with a real tank, not a pet tank. Do you guys really want to be limited by being balanced for pet groups which do not make up the majority of groups, or for the main type of group centered around a real tank and a real healer.
you will never please all of the people all of the time. This year seems to be the year of the whiner. Enchanters did great. Myk did a wonderful job.
Ok then can you please explain to us, how the changes we are going to get are going to help out the enchanter that is having a hard time finding a group a group that is not made up of all casters and a pet. I can not see it, but if you can I would like to learn so please explain.
General Playing an enchanter is less a matter of your spells and AAs, it is matter of how you are able to use the greatest set of abilities of all classes. No other class has as many possibilities and different kinds of how to play as it is provided to enchanters. It is easy to play an enchanter when you rely on certain abilties that most see falsly as the class key abilties - like mezz, clarity and haste. This is like driving a race car in the first gear while complaining about the lack of high speed. You as an enchanter are not defined by the provided abilties but you are defining yourself by what you are able to make with these abilties. This is the same for all other classes, but i think enchanters and bards are because of their low numbers much more judged after your skills in using these abilties. Some of us might not have a problem with that. Some certainly do. But it is abstruse to expect that those lacking the skills will define what is needed and should be demanded for the future of this class. These demands only can be defined by those who know the class much better. Enchanters and groups I never had a problem on finding groups. But i dont use the LFG for it. Everquest is a MMORPG. Multiplayer. Join a guild, have some online friends, real life friends or just some other players that just have met and play together. This is not like "Hey i am chanter, who wants me?" but has to do with social skills and your skills using the enchanter class. If you are not able to build up or join a community then you can have the ub0rness itself as a skill, you wont get an invite. As long as i play the chanter i have never been told "Hey dude, you are so nice, but sorry, enchanters suck that much, that we prefer a different class." But i know a lot of players that are so great in their class, but considered as ***hole and therefor nobody wants to have more than just the initial experience of the first time grouping with them - and then never again. But many times more often i have experienced that players take some players with them on missions that are not considered or considering themselves as hardcores of the first line, and still they love to play with them - simply because they like them. Personally i dont care much for the group setup. There is always a chance to do something independent of what classes you have in the group. Those beginner players that just join a group when it has the optimal setup will lose much more time on waiting for that, while i am already somewhere getting exp with a not optimal group setup. Enchanters and raids I have read somewhere, that most raiding guilds dont have an open slot for enchanters. Well, we have. We only have 3 chanters and 1 or 2 more would be nice - if they are not the complainers and aready for wiping on progression that is and some more things, which will be measured during the trial time like high DPS, resists and so on. Not all guilds play it like we do - we rather often use enchanters for lots of things other guilds are trying to solve in a different way. But i have to admit that most raiding guilds have their own tactics, and when you as a chanter dont fit into it, well, then it is annoying. But i had to do a lot of convincing work and demonstrations about my class, to bring my guild to use enchanters for more than just buffing. Took quite some time, yes, but now the path is open and clear. There is no need complaining about the unlikeness to join a group or guild. And if you are not wanted, then most probably the problem is residing in you, not in the class.
Some people are very popular, and can get an invite into almost any group with any class, are you trying to say the enchanters who are not that popular are at fault for not getting a group, or can it be the class. It is true the enchanter class is a versatile and powerful class, we can accomplish a lot, but for the way the game has been designed for a very long time, most of our skills are not needed. In the old days, the class main abilities was mez and more important being great at using AoE mez, and haste and clarity, in fact we were the best drug dealers in the game for a very long time. Leader type knowledgable persons and a social persons can always either start a group or get a group, but that is not the majority of the player base, just look at HoT and how many people used to beg for help in quests. So should we blame the non leader type of person, or give them the tools that put them in equal footing with the other support classes. I am not sure why this is so hard to understand, when you have 3 out of 4 support classes bringing a lot more to the table for melee classes, then the 4th class is going to have a hard time finding groups based on the class not the person behind the toon.
