Bard Power!

I've always thought bard's were underpowered (can't speak for after luclin as i've never played that far)

I would agree that a higher lvl mez plus a mana free charm would even out the problem, but cap the charm timer back to 16ish seconds like normal songs that way you are forced to actually twist it in.

Lots of people say that a mana free charm is op, i don't really know why if all an enchanter does is charm and keep a couple buffs like clarity/haste, (which is what a bard would be doing if the timer was set back to normal song duration) then enchanter would never come close to running outta mana, and can realistically still do tons of other stuff and it be a ton more reliable. Just this fix would help a ton see'ing that charm is better than mez do to the fact you can off tank a mob with it and effectively CC 2 at a time with 1 song and being doing incredible dps on both ends.

Bard's are meant to be a CC class obviously so matching the lvl mez cap with enchanters is a no brainer imo. a bard can still only lock down 4 mobs while an ench can do 10ish.

just my opinion love these discussiong

I mean lets be honest here. Any group with an enchanter with a charmed pet is doing fine.

I am not demanding a buff and I am not saying the class is broken without it but I am saying a change to the level that a bard can CC wouldn't be game breaking and it would help the group environment by giving groups more options for classes to fill a role that has been increasingly harder to fill.

With all the nerfs done to bards and all of the quality of life changes made to other classes, I think it is the least they could do.
We did get the /melody quality of life change thank god lol! Those old bards pre melody were badasses in my book.

WHO IS LOCATED AROUND BELFAIR THAT CAN TOW? I BUILT A 55 F100 ON AIR RIDE BUT I BLEW A BAG.... I HAVE SOME CHIPS AND POP IF YOURE HUNGRY

HEY

Tough to read this post but let me take out a few things here.

1. Yes, I agree BRD have solo power if you want to spend 5 min+ per mob and get garbage XP. (without charm pet) or if you want to use charm, you can just have a 30 min downtime when you run oom to get that mana back up. That sounds exciting.
The solo EXP is just not a viable way to level up though honestly. I think you would be pressed to hit 60 before Luclin came out on Phinny soloing on a BRD.

2. If you are going down to 50% HP on Eldrig and using 3 charmed pets, you are doing it wrong. Try fear kiting him or fear kiting him with a charm pet. That is the bard way to take out tough mobs!


3. Yes our clarity song 55+ gives more mana than C2 (though the lute only effects the HP regen portion, watch the mana per tick on your cleric with lute on compared to drum). I wouldn't compare it to an Enchanter buff though because I would chose an Ench over a BRD any day of the week.

I could take just about every class and list out the things you can do and I bet I could find a bunch of people with stories of the power of their class just like yours with any class you put out there. Even a ranger could probably tell you some amazing stories even though I feel as if they are one of 2 most under powered classes in EQ at the moment (but not in the future). Rogues are another class that is way under powered but they are starting to climb up in Kunark.

1. It doesn't take 5minutes to kill a mob. And you can solo with fear/dot kiting in between waiting for your mana to come back to charm kite so you never have to stop soloing. I do agree however that soloing isn't the optimal way.
2. I agree twisting snare/fear while having a charm pet would definitely make that easier.
3. I'm playing my bard/cleric right now and my lute is definitely increasing the mana regen of my lvl 55 hp/mana regen song cantata. So your wrong there.
4. I was simply stating that bards are in no way under powered. Its all in how you use it just like any other class. As you have mentioned.

I've always thought bard's were underpowered (can't speak for after luclin as i've never played that far)

I would agree that a higher lvl mez plus a mana free charm would even out the problem, but cap the charm timer back to 16ish seconds like normal songs that way you are forced to actually twist it in.

Lots of people say that a mana free charm is op, i don't really know why if all an enchanter does is charm and keep a couple buffs like clarity/haste, (which is what a bard would be doing if the timer was set back to normal song duration) then enchanter would never come close to running outta mana, and can realistically still do tons of other stuff and it be a ton more reliable. Just this fix would help a ton see'ing that charm is better than mez do to the fact you can off tank a mob with it and effectively CC 2 at a time with 1 song and being doing incredible dps on both ends.

Bard's are meant to be a CC class obviously so matching the lvl mez cap with enchanters is a no brainer imo. a bard can still only lock down 4 mobs while an ench can do 10ish.

just my opinion love these discussiong

Not sure how you link things to show a previous comment but here is why having a mana free charm is OP. We could charm kite forever and never have to stop. Charm kiting is probably the fastest solo exp in the game to make it so we never have to stop would be seriously OP.

In luclin you can get enough FT gear and AA to charm kite all the live long day if you want. It's not very special. Better solo classes will still solo circles around you (though not literally, you'll be the one puking from dizziness). At least now your loot won't rot like it used to because you took so freaking long killing the swarm, so there's a plus.

They "fixed' druid heals going from 800 to over 50k if you go forward enough expansions. Doesn't mean bard needs to be able to mez a specific level right now. The great thing about progression servers is that if a class is a little behind during the current expansion, the next expansion is always right around the corner.

They really did fix druid heals. At level 60, in Kunark, a druid could heal for 600 max. In Velious, at level 60, when they rebalanced heals (mid expansion), a druid could heal for 1491 (I think). They also added Chloroblast at 55 for druids and shamans to heal for 1055.

A 600 heal at level 60 is pathetic. It needed fixing. It is just a shame that it wasn't addressed until Velious originally, so those spells are now introduced in Velious on all TLPs. Druids need more in Kunark.

Roughly 95% of the complaints come down to bards inability to do CC at higher levels. Your counter-argument consists of stories about your exploits in lower level content where bard CC works.

Generally my impression has been, if a bard can duo something with a healer box, an actual strong class like necro/SK/shaman/chanter can solo it. If the bard can solo it once he gets uber gear, the list often includes "weak" classes like clerics and druid, once they get uber gear too. We really need some kind of objective list of this stuff to maintain perspective. They did it in the old days.

What they are telling you is there is a bug on the "comba mana regen" field on the character stats page, where mana regen appears affected by instruments. However if you watch the actual mana increases per tick and do some arithmetic you will find instruments actually have no affect on the mana component.

What the post above says... didn't read until after I posted.

Here are my thoughts on bards:

1. Grouping - decent / good.
Good pullers with uber speed + paci, but lack of FD is a little dangerous in dungeons. Haste somewhat useful to max your haste after worn haste + ench haste (assume an ench is in your group). HP regen / mana regen are nice because they stack. DPS is poor. CC is nice except at like 2 camps in the entire game (currently).

2. Soloing - bad.
Kills are slow, but I guess its possible outside where you can run in circles or use charm swarming. Not your best.

3. Raiding - awesome.
Yes, for resists alone, they are awesome in raiding. If you sing both resist songs, you can literally double your group's MR. This is incredibly important so you're not just running back and forth to Gore like a *****.

Bards don't function like any other class, and it gets complicated with charm. There's a reason that bards can swarm with their charm while other classes and their far superior charm spells would get obliterated if any of them tried to replicate what a bard does. They "balanced" this by having the charm short duration (like almost all bard spells) and by having a rather limiting mana requirement. The mana requirement starts to become a nonfactor later on, but then, charm itself starts seeing nerfs and diminishing relative power later on too.

If you want a mana free charm, do you add a really erratic duration so that breaks happen? Do you perhaps put in a cooldown on the song to prevent chain casting? Do you somehow make bards have to stand still while casting this one? Do you leave the rest well alone and let bards safely chain cast charm indefinitely without stopping in either sense of the word stop? I don't know that any of these solutions would be good. To be perfectly honest I think that bard-style charming is the ideal and my necro being able to perma-pet an undead is what's wrong.

I don't see charm being the answer to the issue here, if the issue is bards being passed over in groups... I see a lack of reliable use as the problem, and effective crowd control potential (at the good camps like juggs and kennels) is the solution. The efficiency that comes from being able to steady chain pull, park mobs and focus down one, laugh at being respawned on, all the things enchanters do - that's what shines. If bards could crowd control while adding their various utility, I suspect they'd be in high demand despite lacking a "hard" charm - just like Clerics are still in demand for their heals despite not having a druid's charm or a shaman's steady dps, because charm/dps isn't everything.

This is accurate, as has been true since day 1. Instrument mods have never affected mana regen or haste %, despite numerous conspiracy theories over the years!

Also, this thread is silly. Bards are the best class ever. Nuff said

I'd say "above average" for grouping when their CC works (quite a few more places can easily get out of hand without real CC besides your two), then below average when their CC doesn't work. One important caveat is that bards operate by making other group members feel like studs leading to inflated popularity with groups anyway.

As for raids, obviously it's still possible to kill dragons without bards (my guilds always have...), it's just a matter of numbers. I wonder what increase in raid size using other classes is equal to adding one bard per group. And of course there's still bosses without AE's, such as VS and some of the dudes in the planes. And some biggies coming in Velious. But not to be totally negative here, bards are definitely an excellent raiding class.

Lute does not increase the mana regen portion of your 55 song. While it shows an increase on the Stats tab of your Inventory, if you actually compare the numbers displayed on the main page of your inventory, you will note that mana regen per tick does not increase with a lute equipped.

The only thing that will increase the effect of mana song is your epic (because it has a + Singing mod). The mana regen portion of the 55 song is Singing based, just like our lower level version.

I really like this quote because it is so true!
The above average in CC must be taking root/slow/necro mez into account because even when they can CC, they don't compare well to the over powered enchanter.