Badgerlord's Rule Set 2.0 Primary Concerns

Hello and Welcome.


First a simple statistic regarding the recent poll. If options 1, 2, and 3 are roughly the same percentage, and D is twice the percentage, you have 20% 20% 20% and 40% respectively.

My Main Point Overall: Why settle for a Fippy look alike, rather than improve this upcoming progression server to be better than anything before it. With Slower Progression winning the vote, its more imperative than ever that my original proposal be considered, which is releasing Kunark as soon as possible. I am very concerned no such option was even suggested in the post. This has been as big or bigger a topic as instancing vs non instancing: What expansions should release and how fast.

I.Release Classic and Kunark together (ClassicARK)
OR
II. Release Classic for a shorter duration and Kunark for a longer duration. (Kunark Fast-Track)

A. The most basic concept is population versus space. At the start of servers, you have a maximum population in the world. The given space can only hold so many people at once. It's like a family of 10 in a 3 bedroom house.

Classic is a huge world; however, most of the space is not used (or trafficked heavily). The Plains of Karana for instance are immense, however you simply don't have many people in those zones. They do not offer the best experience, nor gear. (A small number of people may choose to experience there, and a small number will be questing). People are going to use specific areas the most. In classic, this would be Nagafen's Lair (SolB) and Lower Guk. With guilds and raids going for the planes.

With a maximum population, these specific areas will be immensely overcrowded. If you cannot use these areas, it's a source of immense frustration for players. What's the point of hitting level 50 and not having much of a chance to use the high level content.

Originally, Ruins of Kunark came out in 13months, and that was fine for that time. However, that was an entirely different era. People did not know the game like they do now. This is not a bunch of newbies playing a new game. This is a bunch of veterans playing content they have seen. You saw this on Fippy Darkpaw, and that was with a faster progression. Can you imagine how this would multiple those problems on a slower progression?

People keep talking about instancing vs non instancing due to a select few locking down all raid targets. Well hold up folks, forget about that for the time being. This is far more important than one or two guilds taking all the raid targets. Why? Because now youll have a select group of players taking EVERY target, not simply raid targets. All content is locked down, because there is simplynot enough content to begin with for a maximum population in classic alone.

This is more important than ever with a slower progression. Can you imagine 4.5-6+ months of classic by itself? Once you get past the first and second month, the majority of the population will be high level. By this time, many players will also have their alts at high levels too. Therefore, you have almost an entire maximum serverwide population at high level, with very little high level content available. I predict a number of casual players will want to quit for one of these reasons:
1) Content is overcrowded 2) Best gear is locked down 3) Boredom: even if you can access the content, you can only camp SolB or LowerGuk, POHate so many times before it gets old. Heck, any player casual or hardcore will be bored of classic after 6months.
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Let's look at the actual facts of Classic zones and Kunark zones for high end group content; level 45+. No specific raiding zones, and I'm taking the zones designed for levels 45+, not every zone that has a 45+ mob in it.

Classic Everquest Zones:
--Lower Guk
--Nagafen's Lair (Sol B)
--Kedge Keep
--Castle Mistmoore (being very generous here)

We have a grand total of 4 high end zones where players can really group up in classic (and that's counting the entire back castle of Mistmoore).

Kunark Zones:
--Burning Woods
--Chardok
--City of Mist
--Howling Stones
--Karnor's Castle
--Sebillis
--Skyfire Mountains
--The Dreadlands (if Mistmoore is 45+, then dreadlands too)
--Trakanon's Teeth

We have 8-9 high end zones where players can really group up in Kunark. And they can always go back to the classic group zones as well. That's over DOUBLE the high end contentin classic everquest. Now we have an equilibrium where players are not frustrated they cannot access any content whatsoever, or bored from camping the same area over and over. Once Kunark is up, it also has people needing to go back to lower level zones across classic (antonica, faywder, and Odus) and Kunark zones for quests and epics. This increases travel, makes the world more vibrant and maintains traffick in less used zones.

Conclusive Points as to why we should release Kunark with classic or at a different speed than all other expansions after it.

A1) An early release of Kunark balances out the number of people cramped into concentrated areas (without making the world feel totally deserted).

A2) Give players more access to vastly more content to keep them occupied and prevent boredom. More zones, more quests, more raids, epics, etc.

A3) Kunark gear does not make the previous expansion's gear totally irrelevent like it does in many other games. Sure some pieces of classic are less desirable or not nearly as good, however classic gear will still be farmed and sold. People will still want to camp Lower Guk when Kunark gear is out.

A4) Kunark has zones designed to level in. 3-4 Months of classic means a high number of players are level 50, and probably even have alts to level 50. Therefore, certain kunark leveling zones become more irrelevant. On fippy there were still plenty of people leveling all over (kunark and classic). However, it would be nice to be able to level up in those zones if you so choose with your characters from the start. Opening up the kunark zones does not destroy the classic level zones. You'll still find people in highhold keep, unrest, and others if Kunark is up. But you'll also find people in Lake of Ill Omen, Warsilik Woods, etc.
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Point B Experience Rates: Experience rates and limitations should probably be looked at. Experience Rates are correlated (related to) with duration of expansions. If it takes someone longer to level, they are not burning through content as fast. Even if its only a few extra weeks.

On Fippy they slowed overall exp and put a cap on it. Some players liked this, but many did not. It prioritized faster kills of lower level mobs, and further de-emphasized taking down harder targets or soloing. I loved the recommendations of removing experience cap per kill, and simply adjusting the overall experience rate. Let solo'ers or brave groups take down a blue or yellow, that should be their option. This is already a very social game and a very time consuming game, and soloing is hard enough. Let those who want to take down tougher targets do so without an exp cap per kill restricting them.
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C. Class Balance is incredibly important and undervalued. Class Balance is a pillar of any MMO. The original Everquest was one of my favorite games of all time; however, even then I considered class balance a major weakness of the game. This problem only got worse with fippy darkpaw as game wide class changes were retained. Monk fists, mage pets, shadowknights harm's touch, etc.

Hence, you saw a bunch of mages, monks, and shadowknights running around. Honestly folks, how many rangers did you see running around Fippy Darkpaw? Not nearly as many as monks and mages. How many warriors or paladins were there compared to shadowknights? Sure, warriors have their place in raiding, but they are not nearly as fun or popular as a shadowknight outside of raiding. How many rogues were there? Not many at all. How many wizards? Why player a wizard when mages nuke almost as hard and have badass pets tearing it up? Merely because you want to teleport or translocate?

Keep in mind, you may not agree with every single sentence or statement, but there is no denying EQ has always had class balance issues, which only worsensed with Fippy Darkpaw. Please do not waste time with replies refuting a single sentence while forgetting the larger point. It's fine if you don't agree, but I'd much rather hear solutions or recommendations.

Let me use my original story as an example. I started playing as a ranger. Let me tell you, once I got to level 50 and went back to level a mage and enchanter, I was very surprised. Not only was playing a mage and enchanter more fun, they beat the ranger in almost every way. Raw power output, group desirability, and level of fun. I would say the ranger had decent utility with SoW, but its arguable even the mage had as much or more utility with gate, call of the hero, pet offtanking for group, etc. There's almost sure to be a shaman or druid who can SOW anyhow. So really, what was the point of a ranger?

They were master's of the bow, which was an absolute joke. Melee damage out dps'ed bow damage. Ranger's bows do not come into their own until you get to AA, which is not until Luclin. I personally enjoyed my ranger, but it was simply an underpowered class compared to other classes.

What's the point of a ranger solo or in a group? If all you want is dps, they don't even come close. If you want Crowd Control, they can ghetto cc or snare, but so can other classes while bringing much more to the table. If you want a tank, there's really no comparison. If you want an off tank, a mage pet can usually outdo you. If you want to solo, Ranger's can solo but not nearly as well as necromancer's, or mages. They can kite (or fear Kite), but not nearly as well as bards, druids, or neceromancers. Ranger's are a hybrid class, but what purpose do they serve compared to the other hybrids Paladins, shadowknights, bards, berserkers, whom can all do something very well. The ranger is sort of a jack of all trades, but the bard blows him away in that regard as well.

With Fippy Darkpaw, game wide class changes were retained. As many have said, there was no way around this. Whether this is true or not, there is a solution to balance out classes. To balance out classes, you can subtract from an overpowered class or add to an underpowered class. If subtraction is not possible, then you add to an underpowered class.

It does not have to be huge or game breaking, but certain buffs could be added to the underplayed or underpowered classes. The ranger for example, could be given higher base bow damage and accuracy. A warrior could be given higher out of combat regeneration to make soloing more feasible. Give rogues some kind of buff. Give wizards a reason to be played over mages other than simply teleports. Another gentleman recommended upgrading some of the wizard nukes to rank IIs at lower levels. I personally think this is anawesome recommendation.

These are merely ideas off the top of my head. Maybe something I recommended isn't the right answer. I'm certain there are better ideas and solutions (for class balance and other issues), and I would love to hear them.

I would also like to see people putting more emphasis on class balance. If we let the developers know this is an important issue, it will matter. It would be nice NOT to see a bunch of mages, monks, and shadowknights running amok. It would be nice to have a reason to play any class and feel like your just as good as any other class.

Conclusion:
The developers work hard and they are smart people. I'm sure they already know or have thought of many of these points; however, it would be nice to let them know how important they are. Overall, I'd like to see the timetable release option for a Kunark fast-track, which has not been mentioned yet by Daybreak, and I'd like to see more emphasis on adjusting class balance.

Thank you for reading my post guys, and I hope this new progression server is an improvement over Fippy Darkpaw, and even possibly an improvement over the original game itself. Best of luck everyone in game and in life.

I am in favor of your Kunark Fast-Track idea. I think that will make the most players happy in the long run, and the other options would be a mess.

On class balance, the problem is that it shifts every expansion. You can address class balance during classic, but it would be a pretty monumental task to address it every single expansion for the life of the server.

I've already suggested an easy way to address the class balance issues for caster classes during classic (rank 2 spells), but that's just a small piece of the overall puzzle. Unfortunately Daybreak really doesn't have the resources to address the whole pie over the life of the entire server. So, people will periodically reroll/main change as guild needs shift from expansion to expansion, and that is just part of the experience. As long as everyone has equal access to every class, things work themselves out over time.

I am also in support of a fast track Kunark. Very nice post OP. Machen brings up some very good points about class balancing.

People always forget necros...they are just as unbalanced as Mages in classic. Kunark bumps up the mages with epics. By Luclin, the pet unbalancing is no longer an issue.

Oh btw, whichever option wins the vote, if you fast track Kunark, you could add the time taken off just classic back to kunark/velious/luclin so that we still spend the same amount of time in the first 2 or 3 expansions.

Kunark fast track is a good idea.

I want to see a classic period because I think that period is extremely important, but I don't think 4-6 months is a good idea. 2 to 3 months is a much better idea for classic.

there are a few ways to help classic. Raid instances would help keep everyone entertained and faster respawns would help people experience. I want longer time in expansions but six months is long for classic even with my proposed changes. If it's just fippy 2.0 then six months will be brutal.

I really like Grish's idea.

I'm worried here: 2 things. One will Daybreak consider a Kunark Fast Track. 2) IF it is a vote, will people actually be smart enough to vote for it. In other words, what would happen if they vote 6 months of classic?

Without thinking about it, 6 months of classic sounds so great. Once you really sit down and think, it does not, especially if you played on Fippy.

We need to spread the word; campaign hard to let people know the truth.


6 months of classic might even be a progression killer. Can you imagine people not being able to do anything at 50 from excessive crowding, every single decent spawn being on total lockdown by boxers, guilds, or farmers. Even if those somehow aren't true (which I cant see how they wouldn't be), then people will just be straight up bored after 6 months of guk, solb, and planes. You might have a mass exodus of players before Kunark even gets released.

I like you Frenzic, but I'm just not convinced raid instances are the best ways. It simply influences the economy too much and takes away the value of good non raid drops. Why camp those cloak slots in seb, ,etc, when you can just instance up a naggy on your alt.


Even if you put stuff on 10-14 day lockouts, if you have a bunch of cloak of flames running around, it not only destroys other back slot drops, but also other haste drops such as FBSS. Now I would be all for instancing the 3 planes: sky fear and hate. I could definitely see how that would alleviate problems, but I'm not for instancing the non quest related NPCS with solid drops.

That's how I personally view it. But the instance vs non instance is not my debate. I'd play either way as long as every dungeon is not instanced (if every dungeon was instanced) there is no chance I'd pay.

My concern is the length of a classic release, and the issues it brings about, along with class balance.

What about Kunark Fast-Tracking, and then as Grish suggests, them adding time back onto Velious and Luclin and Plane sof Power.

Well thanks Badger, I like you too buddy!

Per the instancing argument, it's a valid concern. I proposed a few sulotions to these complains.

7-14 day lockouts
No drop loot
36+ to enter the instance

With these three rules in place it would drastically correct the gear flow problem. I'm not saying that we need all three of these, it's just three rules that could be implemented if need be.

I'm in favor of instancing. I hated all the drama on Fippy and it'll happen again. >< Yesterday I found myself in a channel with people who were talking about how they plan on training, leap frogging, and screwing up Ragefire and Sirran the Lunatic for everyone else. Anything that can alleviate some of the drama would be nice.

Good question. You tell me which you'd prefer for anything other than a monk/rogue:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=59468
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2192

I assume by your statement that you support instancing the quest-related NPCs. So:

Lord Nagafen: Red Dragon Scales (Bard Epic, Warrior Epic); Torn, burnt book (Paladin Epic)

Lady Vox: White Dragon Scales (Bard Epic); Torn, Frost covered book (Paladin Epic)
Phinny: Robe of Kedge (Rogue Epic); Backbone (Bard Epic); Blue Crystal Staff (Wizzy Epic); Water Staff (Mage Epic)

Kunark:
Overking Bathezid: Singed Scroll (Cleric Epic)
Prince Selrach: Head of a Prince (Enchanter Epic)
Queen Velazul: Ancient Blade (Warrior Epic)
Venril Sathir: Pulsing Green Stone (Druid/Ranger Epic)

Basically, without instancing the above the following classes run the very real risk of not seeing their epic for years after the server launches:
Bard, Warrior, Paladin, Rogue, Wizard, Mage, Cleric, Enchanter, Druid, Ranger

Ouch.

Severilous should probably be worked in there somewhere. I'm sure there's more

You definetly have a point regarding the overcrowding of classic area once people starts hitting 40+ there really is only 2 viable zones for most people 40+ and that is truely a nightmare with 100+ people in Sol B and L.Guk
I'm not sure how releasing a full kunark 1 month after classic is going to affect the game tho.
Problem is, now you have the ultra hardcore locking down not just classic bosses but also kunark bosses and once the rest of the server catches up they are fully equipped in boss lewt and will start selling it off instead of letting others have a go at the bosses.

This could be aleviated in 2 ways:

instancing.
I don't know how much effort that cost for the dev's but if its any way nearly possible to do, by all means do it.

I would add some more restrictions and possibilities for instancing:

• pure quest versions of bottlekneck epic bosses and mini's (no rmb rbb cof etc. loot on these)
• 1-7 days logout (the boss only have quest loot or minor loot spots)
• 14 days logout, level 44 to enter, no drop loot on all regular boss instancing with full loot table
• some min size on raid when instancing 20, 24, 30 ?

You could also do it another way:

Open an early somewhat crippled kunark without raid bosses and endgame zones like

VP, Chardok, Howling stones, or at least filter the high end areas out.

VP kinda speaks for itself, as only very few people of the original classic kunark era even

managed to get keyed, yet kill a single dragon in there.

This would open up a lot of possible hunting and experiencing areas all the way from lvl 1 to 50+

And the general quality of loot in Kunark at lvl 1-45 exp. areas is not like its gonna totally break the game experience or economy.

Then you could release a full featured Kunark some months later and still combine it with instancing for easing peoples access to Epic Quests.

Both of these are valid points. What if the instanced versions had different loot tables, where the quest stuff dropped normally, but the really good loot, like the cloak of flames, were rare drops?

I think this is a really good idea. Kunark definitely needs to get added sooner rather then later.

Just gonna say if your in lguk or Solb during classic period, your doing it wrong

Just gonna throw that out there lol.

I will give you Lguk if your camping for a drop, but Solbs exp rate is so bad it isn't worth stepping foot in that zone for anything other than Naggy and Fret...and you wont get fret cause I got that place locked down tight

As some others have noticed, Roshen laid to rest the instancing debate.

"Creating and scripting lockouts isn't easy, and it's one part of why instancing couldn't happen by this summer for a new progression server. Not only is this is hard, it's easy for dev to get this wrong, and if we did want to do this it would become the most time consuming aspect of building this (or a future) server."

I argued that with a slower progression, Kunark Fast-Track is more important than ever. Classic content for 4-6+ months creates enormous problems, and could even be a server killer (please read this entire thread if you didn't catch why).

https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/...set-2-0-primary-concerns.219128/#post-3194707

Some people made a decent counter point that instancing might alleviate some of these problems. I wasn't on board with all of it, but some of them made sense. I still don't think instancing would have alleviated the small amount of high level content in classic from boredom after 6 months.

Now that instancing is out, its even more important to get behind the Kunark-Fast Track guys. This is a viable option for the developers and alleviates major problems with the start of progression.

I hope classic keeps the 4.5 months or 6 months with no kunark fast track. Lots of people dont want to rush through things. If people get 50 and get bored / find theres nothing to do they can always make alts/take a break while the others enjoy the classic period while its best in game. The majority voted for slow unlocks and I think its mostly because of the classic/kunark/velous/luclin/PoP period.

Kunark fast track seems more like what someone would want if they voted faster paced servers.

I think there will be 2 servers just like the last 2 sets of progression servers. The only question is if they are both announced beforehand ( best ) or a 2nd opens later. If the population splits between both semi evenly the overcrowding wont be as bad. PoHate was barely touched on vulak for the first 1.5 months outside of a raid. I remember lots of times around 1 month in my group was the only one there with almost or full trash pop.

You may have a totally different opinion when you see how bad it is. The slower server did win overwhelmingly that much is true. That doesn't mean more people don't support a fast track to Kunark and then a slow down. If that were voted on, it's very possible it would win but we won't know unless there is a vote.

I mean, lets look at what is different from 2.0 servers.

The unlocks are slower but guaranteed...
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Um, oh yeah and there will be almost non existent customer service, which is way worse than it was on 2.0 servers.

It's going to be ugly one way or another. If there are some viable choices, it might alleviate a lot of drama. It's not a cure, just a bandage but it is something.

I think people kind of overreact about possible lack of customer service. The other day I had a issue and put a petition in. It was looked into and answered the next day ( on a normal server )

Id think there would actually be a good amount of customer service for brand new progression servers and bigger consequences if rules arent followed. Its a pretty important server for daybreak and may be extremely profitable depending on subs/station store.