Something I worked up for my own guild, but since the old forums are dead I figured it might help to repost it here for people. Includes info on non-tanks too for comparisons: How to calculate your REAL AC Simple descriptive formula is: Pre-softcap ac + (post-softcap ac * post-softcap return rate) + shield ac Pre softcap ac: (defense skill level + player level)*1.88*(1+combatstability modifier) combat stability modifer = ACLimitMod value from combat stability +2 from Physical Enhancement 1.72 max with VoA Defense max skill 375 with VoA for paladins Player level 95 1.88 = modifier, this was from pre-SoF, is this still true? No dev would confirm for me, so we don't know if this was a specific variable or a black box value including other variables affected by leveling. COMBAT AGILITY AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1 1 - Evasion 2 2 - Evasion 5 3 - Evasion 10 4 - Evasion 13 5 - Evasion 16 6 - Evasion 19 7 - Evasion 22 8 - Evasion 25 9 - Evasion 26 10 - Evasion 27 11 - Evasion 28 12 - Evasion 30 13 - Evasion 32 14 - Evasion 33 15 - Evasion 34 16 - Evasion 35 17 - Evasion 37 18 - Evasion 39 19 - Evasion 40 20 - Evasion 41 21 - Evasion 42 22 - Evasion 43 23 - Evasion 44 24 - Evasion 45 25 - Evasion 46 26 - Evasion 47 27 - Evasion 48 28 - Evasion 49 29 - Evasion 50 30 - Evasion 51 31 - Evasion 52 32 - Evasion 53 33 - Evasion 54 34 - Evasion 55 35 - Evasion 56 36 - Evasion 57 37 - Evasion 58 38 - Evasion 59 39 - Evasion 60 40 - Evasion 61 41 - Evasion 62 42 - Evasion 63 43 - Evasion 64 44 - Evasion 65 45 - Evasion 66 COMBAT STABILITY AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1 1 - ACLimitMod 2 2 - ACLimitMod 5 3 - ACLimitMod 10 4 - ACLimitMod 13 5 - ACLimitMod 16 6 - ACLimitMod 19 7 - ACLimitMod 22 8 - ACLimitMod 25 9 - ACLimitMod 27 10 - ACLimitMod 29 11 - ACLimitMod 31 12 - ACLimitMod 33 13 - ACLimitMod 35 14 - ACLimitMod 37 15 - ACLimitMod 39 16 - ACLimitMod 41 17 - ACLimitMod 43 18 - ACLimitMod 45 19 - ACLimitMod 46 20 - ACLimitMod 47 21 - ACLimitMod 48 22 - ACLimitMod 49 23 - ACLimitMod 50 24 - ACLimitMod 51 25 - ACLimitMod 52 26 - ACLimitMod 53 27 - ACLimitMod 54 28 - ACLimitMod 55 29 - ACLimitMod 56 30 - ACLimitMod 57 31 - ACLimitMod 58 32 - ACLimitMod 59 33 - ACLimitMod 60 34 - ACLimitMod 61 35 - ACLimitMod 62 36 - ACLimitMod 63 37 - ACLimitMod 64 38 - ACLimitMod 65 39 - ACLimitMod 66 40 - ACLimitMod 67 41 - ACLimitMod 68 42 - ACLimitMod 69 43 - ACLimitMod 70 They are both a %, agility a flat % increase over base avoidance (so before all the goodies like heroics and foci etc) and stability is a % increase on your AC softcap. Those numbers should be correct. Physical enhancement is an additional +2 to both values. AC Softcap % determination (directly from developer Nodyin) Here are the raw numbers. Each class *should* work out to 50 AC after running through the Softcap division, which varies by class, so the data varies by class: Warrior NAME AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1 Armor of Wisdom 1 AC 29 Armor of Wisdom 2 AC 58 Armor of Wisdom 3 AC 87 Armor of Wisdom 4 AC 116 Armor of Wisdom 5 AC 145 Cleric, Ranger, Monk, Bard NAME AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1 Armor of Wisdom 1 AC 33 Armor of Wisdom 2 AC 66 Armor of Wisdom 3 AC 99 Armor of Wisdom 4 AC 132 Armor of Wisdom 5 AC 165 Paladin, Shadow Knight NAME AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1 Armor of Wisdom 1 AC 31 Armor of Wisdom 2 AC 62 Armor of Wisdom 3 AC 93 Armor of Wisdom 4 AC 124 Armor of Wisdom 5 AC 155 Druid, Necromancer, Wizard, Enchanter, Mage NAME AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1 Armor of Wisdom 1 AC 50 Armor of Wisdom 2 AC 100 Armor of Wisdom 3 AC 150 Armor of Wisdom 4 AC 200 Armor of Wisdom 5 AC 250 Rogue, Shaman, Beastlord, Berserker NAME AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1 Armor of Wisdom 1 AC 40 Armor of Wisdom 2 AC 80 Armor of Wisdom 3 AC 120 Armor of Wisdom 4 AC 160 Armor of Wisdom 5 AC 200 So that gives us: Warrior: 34.48% Paladin/Shadowknight: 32.25% Ranger/Cleric/Bard/Monk: 30.30% Rogue/Shaman/Beastlord/Berserker: 25% Druid/Necromancer/Enchanter/Wizard/Magician: 20% Posts-soft cap return as DRAMATICALLY increased for casters, and there was a small increase for most non-tank classes during SoF beta (I think it was SoF, I honestly can't recall at this point). For example, the post-cap return for int casters used to be only 5% (so 20 ac would only act like 1 ac). Classes with Physical Enhancement AA Paladin Shadowknight Warrior Monk Rogue Berserker Ranger Bard Beastlord Defense skill caps at level 95 Paladin 375 Shadowknight 375 Warrior 375 Cleric 325 Bard 365 Shaman 325 Berserker 340 Rogue 365 Ranger 340 Monk 365 Druid 325 Beastlord 340 Enchanter 310 Wizard 310 Necromancer 310 Magician 310 AC Softcap by Class (Veil of Alaris) - this is not displayed AC, or buffed AC, this is actual rAC (raw item ac type) Paladin 1520 Warrior 1520 Shadowknight 1520 Bard 1487 Rogue 1487 Monk 1487 Berserker 1407 Ranger 1407 Beastlord 1407 Druid 1342 Shaman 1342 Cleric 1342 Wizard 1294 Enchanter 1294 Necromancer 1294 Magician 1294 - - - - Now, let's say you have all characters (that can equip a shield with 250 ac) that hypothetically had 4000 ac from items/augs (3750 for zerkers). Your actual rAC would be: With Shield AC Ranking Warrior 1520 + 250 + 769 = 2539 Paladin 1520 + 250 + 719 = 2489 Shadowknight 1520 + 250 + 719 = 2489 Bard 1487 + 250 + 686 = 2423 Monk 1487 + 250 + 686 = 2423 Ranger 1407 + 250 + 710 = 2367 Cleric 1342 + 250 + 729 = 2321 Rogue 1487 + 250 + 566 = 2303 Beastlord 1407 + 250 + 586 = 2243 Shaman 1342 + 250 + 602 = 2194 Druid 1342 + 250 + 482 = 2074 Berserker 1407 + 648 = 2055 Wizard 1294 + 250 + 491 = 2035 Enchanter 1294 + 250 + 491 = 2035 Necromancer 1294 + 250 + 491 = 2035 Magician 1294 + 250 + 491 = 2035 But that is just post cap ac returns, and its assuming everyone that can uses a shield, and it assumes everyone has the same item/aug ac, which is not true. So in terms of how much melee damage you're going to take from mobs on raids, meaning, to get an idea of mitigation of unexpected damage on non-tanks (and that's not even getting into the issue of avoidance skill caps, warrior innate DI advantage, etc), this is more likely: Keep in mind that powersource ac counts as item ac so is included in these values based on what people seem to actually be sporting in the top 25 or so serverwide by class (not top 25 in ac). AC Ranking Warrior (4400 total ac + shield) 1520 + 250 + 907 = 2677 Paladin (4300 total ac + shield) 1520 + 250 + 816 = 2586 Shadowknight (4300 total ac + shield) 1520 + 250 + 816 = 2586 Cleric (3600 total ac + shield) 1342 + 250 + 608 = 2200 Bard (3700 total ac no shield) 1487 + 670 = 2157 Monk (3300 total ac no shield ) 1487 + 549 = 2036 Shaman (3300 total ac + shield) 1342 + 250 + 427 = 2019 Ranger (3400 total ac no shield) 1407 + 604 = 2011 Rogue (3400 total ac no shield) 1487 + 478 = 1965 Berserker (3500 total ac no shield) 1407 + 523 = 1930 Druid (3100 total ac + shield) 1342 + 250 + 301 = 1893 Beastlord (3200 total ac no shield) 1407 + 448 = 1855 Enchanter (2950 total ac + shield) 1294 + 250 + 281 = 1825 Magician (2900 total ac + shield) 1294 + 250 + 271 = 1815 Wizard (2850 total ac + shield) 1294 + 250 + 261 = 1805 Necromancer (2600 total ac + shield) 1294 + 250 + 211 = 1755 That is just raw mitigation on successful hits, so avoidance is obviously a huge deal. Metal Powersource Versus Elemental 200 raw ac versus 80 raw ac + 800 raw hp So 120 raw ac only returns, for example, 24 ac for an enchanter (post cap return rate of 20% * 120 ac). For regular augs: Averaging 35 ac per slot versus 15 ac per slot for a caster, or 400 raw ac, is only gaining you 80 rAC difference in mitigation, which doesn't even put an int caster up to the berserker level of mitigation with the same level of unaugged equipment. So it makes a lot more sense for people that aren't supposed to take hits to focus on heroics that increase their avoidance (dex/agi), hp, mana, instead of AC. So, if the choice is an hypothetical ac aug with 40 AC +5 heroic strength + 80 hp, versus one with 15 ac +5 heroic dex +120 hp, a caster should not be wearing the high ac aug if they wanted to be effective. The mitigation boost on the ac is there, but would be outweighed by the cumulative avoidance on the heroics if you made overall aug choices like that. More ac helps, of course, but the obsession with ac some casters/melee have is really unwarranted considering the other options and how ac works. This is coming from one of the most avowed ac around. How does this information go into "tanking", in the sense of survivability? Putting aside avoidance for now, you can use the rAC values to get an idea of mitigation (average hit) and how that impacts high DI rounds. For example. Take some hypothetical situations: Type A (add trash group etc) Mob DB = 2000 Mob DI = 500 Min hit = 2500 Max hit = 12000 Type B (named type, raid mob) Mob DB = 5000 Mob DI = 1250 Min hit = 6250 Max hit = 30000 knight in our level of gear here ~2600 rAC ranger in our level of gear here ~2000 rAC caster in our level of gear here ~1800 rAC If a knight is taking an average DI of 5.0, that means the ranger would be taking about a 6.5 DI, and the caster about a 7.2 DI So the average hit on these examples are around: Type A knight 4500 ranger 5250 caster 5600 Type B knight 11250 ranger 13250 caster 14000 So a "big round" (DI from quad swing = cumulative value of 60-80 range, no misses) comes out to: Type A 38,000-48,000 damage Type B 95,000-120,000 damage For the classes, the chance of a high DI hit on these mobs should be around: knight 15% ranger 19.5% caster 21.5% So the probility of a high DI round (again, ignoring avoidance which drops this dramatically): knight 5.06% chance ranger 14.46% chance caster 21.37% chance High DI round are what kills people, because it when you get one rounded, or consecutive round kills, etc. So that shows the % chance (on no mob misses) of getting one of those high DI rounds that kills you, and you see the dramatic difference between a tank, a light tank, and a caster. So on the raid type mob, the ranger is taking 17.8% more damage than the knight, per hit, but is taking 186% more high DI rounds that kill you. Add in avoidance and the actual chance for one of those rounds is a lot lower, but the relative difference remains. So when you're, say, a caster or melee dps, focusing on AC augs for survivability, ultimately its giving you a lot less in real survivability versus what you get in average damage taken per hit, and in a false sense of security.
Note: the aug comparison for casters talking about an aug with +hDex was just a hypothetical example. I should have said +hAgi, since casters don't parry/riposte. Its not a big deal since I think the point gets across, but I forgot to edit that before posting and its too late to edit the OP now.
Note: for clarification for newer players that aren't 100% on tanking vernacular, since we haven't done a lot of serious parsing in years (most of us old guard anyway), for reference: DI = damage interval, this is 20 interval integer value that each mob has for damage output DB = damage bonus, this is a flat damage added to each hit (this is reduced by +shielding % mod2 on player gear) So the damage from an NPC on any single hit is DI(#)+DB. where # is a number between 1 and 20. So if a mob has a DI of 500 and a DB of 2000, its min hit is 2500 (or 1800 with max shielding), and its max hit is 12000 (11300 with max shielding). The DI multiplier you get is a random function in the game that is seeded by the mob's attack rating and your ac rating (your mitigation ac, not your displayed or total rAC). So the bigger the difference in your ac versus a mob's attack, the lower the average hit is, due to having more hits at the low end of the 1 through 20 DI distribution.
Go for the augs tailored to your class for best results. Luckily there are quite a few augs for pretty much every archetype that has good AC on them.
A full set of 35 ac augs in 18 slots would net you like 160 rAC, which in modern raid gear would be a good 7-8% improvement in mitigation (assuming no shield) as a ranger. Of course, even if you go for HP you're going to get a bunch of ac with how augs are today. How many augs would you even have with less than 25 ac? So you're really talking about more like 1-2% increase in average dps reduction versus using the highest ac augs you can get, though your survivability would go up more than that if you are dying to damage spikes. I think the whole "ac versus hp" debate is dead except among tanks (ac) that want to be at the top of the magelo ranking and other classes that want to do the same (hp). Most people should be using the same augs anyway (as melee in particular), and the real smart aug choices are based off heroics. As a tank, a 25 ac +8 heroic dex aug is much more powerful than a 40 ac vanilla aug. But, its hard for even the most enlightened to pass up using those high ac augs, and with how inflated gear is, its meaningless in the raid game anyway (at least as of VoA), as the difference in equally geared but differentially auged tanks is nearly 0 due to how fast gear has inflated versus augs.
Well, I go for a hybrid approach, personally.. As long as the AC aug has hAgi or hDex on it, I'll consider it... But it has to have both. (Both as in AC + hAgi, or AC +hDex)
It would be hard to argue for a non-ac aug at this point, for someone taking melee damage, what with augs being up to 30%+ of the ac of the item but like 5-8% the hp at most. Just more bang for your buck to make sure you're getting ac in every slot, what with the plethora of options that have various heroics on them.
Aug Bank That's the tool I made/use to figure out augs. Don't think I've updated it with my current set, but take it or leave it, heh.
I believe that 2h block is a chance to dodge on a caster. (Correct if wrong, please) Dodge is the last check before a hit hits a character. So, Shield+Weapon, you lose the following: Shield - You lose Shield Block, which is a very-early on check. Shield - You lose the softcap boost to AC the shield gives (equal to the AC on the shield). When shields are around 250 AC at the moment, that's fairly huge. I don't have the numbers handy, but you should lose quite a bit of your ability to survive... The questions you have to ask yourself, is if the content you're fighting is: Hard enough that the Shield/Weapon won't help your survival. Easy enough that the 2H weapon is irrelevant to your survival. Am I going to get hit? If yes, Shield. If no, figure out if the 2H dps boost(?) is worth it. Sorry for vagueness... Wish I had the data, but haven't done much research since SoF.
How are you working out the average DI figures based on AC? Or what percentage chance there is of each individual DI figure appearing? (Ie the distribution function).
Two casters one goes AC and HAgi augs and the second caster goes with mana and hp augs, which caster will have a greater chance at surviving a quad? The last two expansions did not come out with a single caster aug that has HAgi on it, but you can find that heroic on the AC augs. The extra hp's you get on the caster augs, is not going to help you survive a hit, but HAgi augs will and AC augs might.
The object of a silk caster sans chanter is to not get hit, but rather to make the most damage out of their mana. Sure hagi would be nice and is the best aug route for a caster who intends to get hit. But otherwise min maxing mana is their best option outside of a shield aug. edit to add: Necros have no real reason to aug for mana, with death bloom it is mostly irrelevant. Auging for HP and hagi is probably better for them.
More mana doesn't do you any good when your dead. Its nice to say "avoid getting hit", but everyone does get hit
A Wiz/Mage raiding current content and geared from that content needs to spend about 100k mana before they go oom. Because a number of the best mana augs are also among the best augs by other standards as well focusing on mana for augs results in about a 1000mana gain. So your starting maximum value is 1% of the damage output, which drops to 0% if the fight it too short to spend 100k mana, drops down on longer fights as the mana spent by the player continues to increase, is lower because a number of damage increasing effects are no longer running by the time they spend that 1k mana and lowered because rather than doing nothing absent the 1k mana the player is using more mana efficient spells. To dismiss the value of hAgi, HP/hSta or SplDmg or for that matter even AC or SvCor in favor of Mana/hInt completely ignores that Mana/hInt does very little.
who said anything about dismissing them? Obv sdmg is the stat most mage seek out and b/c of recast does less for wiz. For any fight you are describing where burning through mana is NBD all the other stats you just listed sans sdmg is also worthless. For any duration fight they will get more out of Hint/Sdmg. If all things equal and everyone is doing their job and you have the luxury of min/maxing to the utmost Hint/sdmg which oddly enough also has mana on it. You guys are greatly over complicating this stuff. Hagi/sta should mean nothing to a raid caster in an optimal setting. Sure people are going to get hit, but the likelihood of them surviving getting hit isn't that high to begin with look at the return on ac they get. Most people aug for the min/max setting and as such hint/mana/sdmg augs are what they are seeking out.
So to recap "otherwise min maxing mana is their best option" for silk casters other than Enc, Necros and Mages and for Wizards SplDmg is also useful. Nothing complicated, your post was terrible.
the guy asked about hagi vs mana/hp augs. There was no reason to mention sdmg, when I was telling him that auging for defensives as a silk caster was semi pointless. If he had asked about sdmg I would have mentioned it. you honestly listed sv corruption as a viable option and you're calling my post bad?
