So many threads in the Veterans Lounge put TDS in a negative light, especially with regards to the ability to gain XP. A lot has been made about the XP changes in COTF Heroic Adventures, as well as overall XP in RoF and below. Many have commented about the high XP on monsters in TDS, and the lack of movement on the XP bar in TDS. I started playing TDS on November 4. I was AFK from EQ the previous three weeks. I logged in on that Tuesday morning, claimed my banked quest rewards and glyphs, and started on the first zone in TDS. My goal was to play strictly in TDS- no Gribble HA, no flipping of moles...just TDS. On November 20, I reached lvl 105. At that point I had completed all of progression except for Thulisaur merc tasks, and Arx merc/partisan/mission. I had not used a single XP potion the entire way. Only twice I used Lessons- that was Wednesday and Thursday of this week after the patch that improved overall TDS XP gains. Which means for the majority of my time, I was killing and gaining XP under the "worse" TDS system. I spent half of my time alone, and half with anywhere from 1-3 other players (mostly guild members). I averaged around 6 hours per day playing in TDS over the past two weeks. Which factors out to around 100 hours or so spent in TDS- give or take a dozen hours either way. I do play a magician, so I acknowledge that it is easier for me to molo current content that, say, a rogue. So what is the point of this thread? To show everyone that you can level up in TDS. You can gain lvl 105 only through TDS, without lessons or XP potions. That you can progress in TDS...if you actually make an effort to do so. If you sit in the Guild Lobby all day...if you have only experienced three Gribble missions in all of EQ in the past twelve months... if you have only done one Bixie mission in the past six months... if you log onto EQ, tell general chat you are LFG, wait five minutes then log off in disgust.... then yeah, TDS is going to be hard and seem impossible. But if you actually put in some work and effort and some experience into the new expansion, you might be surprised when you hit lvl 105 in a hundred or so hours. Which if you put in an hour a day on average, means you are looking at lvl 105 in February 2015. Is that really so bad?
I am glad you had such a positive experience. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the same for many others. I wonder what you did differently in the new expansion that others are not doing. Btw your estimate in finishing things by February by putting in an hour a day may be off because some people will not be able to accomplish some things with just one hour a day of play. Just a thought. And for the group player they still have to get all their gear and spells, not just get level 105. That seems a bit more daunting. Can you tell us are you a group player or raider and what sort of support did you have achieving 105 in TDS or did you do it all solo?
Support? He's a mage. All he needs is a healer merc, and he has a tank, healer, and dps. Just joshing. Don't kill me, mage community. I love mages and their OPness.
I also have been having a blast with TDS--but it's not for the weak. It's for those that love challenges, a taste of intrepidation, some definitely difficult situations, and have actual knowledge of their character and how the game works. If you're not enough of a gamer to accept those challenges, learn to overcome them, and glory in the satisfaction of accomplishing something difficult, then go back to your RoF or your Gribbles and Bixies, or another game--TDS isn't for you.
I believe the difference is merely an open mind. She tried it without first buying into the lies about how horrible TDS is. I'm a grouper, not a raider, and I'm having a good experience in TDS. If you hate TDS, and want to post about it, I'm going to ask you to explain the problem in detail, because I don't believe it. I've asked in several of these negative threads, and nobody's even replied to me. It's all just bandwagoning. You mention that it's tough to get groups, and I agree that that's a valid complaint. They did work in TDS to improve grouping, but I agree that it's not enough. That said, it's easier to get a group with TDS than the years before it was released, so you can't blame the expansion for lack of groups.
What fraction of the EQ populace do you think we would have left should they go to another game if TDS is not for them? Who do you think keeps the servers running, exactly? And the challenge of TDS has nothing to do with knowing your character, or knowing the game mechanics. It is finding someone willing to help you with quests that give them no rewards once they have already done them, or hoping you find someone at the exact same point as you.
If you're "friends" are so selfish that they aren't interested in helping you catch up (so you can, you know, help them out in return when you reach their progression) without something being in it for them, I'd check the definition of friend. If it's guildmates in a raiding guild refusing to support their guild, then you have an entirely different issue. Understanding game mechanics absolutely is a factor in progression and TDS success in general, especially for DPS and debuff classes. Helping your wizard mercs or wizard toons by pulling with a debuff to help their Lower Element land more consistently (or even using Lower Element in the first place), knowing the right order to use Synergy and Flying Kick, using short cycle DPS/ADPS discs appropriately, understanding how your tank builds aggro and at what speed, dropping the Light heal from your healing pattern and using intraventions/renewals instead--all of these things and a whole lot more can get you past the elf skeleton in Dagmar's Castle, the Hunted Lizardman in Thuliasaur, and quite a few other speedbumps in progression.
For me, its a bit of a mix. Qest- you want details. Here are mine personally. Things I Hate 1) Spell drop rate - as a boxer, the drop rate of Spells is miserable. In looking at the Povar Bazaar right now, there is one minor priced at 425K, 1 Lesser at 650K, and 1 Greater and Glowing currently priced at 1M. The sad thing is, based on the drop rate, this is legitimate pricing. 2. Group missions with no chests. I have said it before, this seems like a "developers ran out of time kinda thing" more than a sensible design decision. It will destroy the replay value of missions and as mentioned earlier in the post, make it that much harder for folks to catch up and get support for progression if not in a guild or someone with friends willing to do favors. 3. Experience is a joke - Sony wants people in these new zones. Utilizing the carrot rather than the nerf stick on older content would have been the better way to go to promote participation in the new zones without all of the hatred. Hatred seems like its a strong word, but based on forum response, its probably the best description of the environment the Devs have created. 4. 7 raids crammed into one zone. I personally would have preferred 7 raids where the first one occurs in Brothers Island, second is in Degmar, etc. (and yes Caverns was omitted intentionally. Underwater raids are pretty awful). Also 7 raids is bad no matter how you look at it. Raids tuned to a difficulty where 7 lasts you a year will be very painful for non-cutting edge guilds. Cutting edge guilds will also chew through 7 raids quickly. Things I Like 1. The zones are pretty and while challenging, they feel just about right from a tuning perspective. 2. The quests are not bad. While they are more of the same, I am enjoying them. Overall, my biggest frustration is the nerf bat mentality has caused a couple of the friends I play with a lot to flat out quit. I am still playing, but I understand their frustrations and grievances with the approach taken. As a result, my group of RL friends playing is smaller now.
It's actually I don't want to ask my friends to help with something that is neither fun nor rewarding. A lot of the progression quests have elements to them that do not fit my preferred play style. I don't enjoy them. I like fast paced pulling, mass killing, maximizing your classes abilities, being on the threshold of wiping. I don't like go here, hail 10x, to here, collect 8 items, return here, hand in items, zig zag around a zone doing little things for an hour tasks. Friends don't ask friends to suffer with them. That said, I have helped other friends catch up. I want them in the higher tier zones with me to be able to do the things we actually enjoy. Good players should already have this down. Even in easy mode Gribble, understanding mechanics was enough to greatly reduce your run time and be much more efficient. The difference between nitwit group members and good was was typically about 50% clock time.
How many true friends do you think the casual people posting here have in game? Or have remaining in game as the case may be. You make a lot of assumptions about this stereotypical casual player that you seem to be fighting. This player is in a raiding guild, or a large guild at all, with lots of friends to help them progress, but they just do not have the skills to play their class or just want to moan about something. Do I have that right?
[QUOTEYou mention that it's tough to get groups, and I agree that that's a valid complaint. They did work in TDS to improve grouping, but I agree that it's not enough. That said, it's easier to get a group with TDS than the years before it was released, so you can't blame the expansion for lack of groups. ][/QUOTE] I never said anything about getting groups being hard or not. How do you feel that that grouping was improved in TDS?
Point by point: 1. All the spells are for sale inexpensively from vendors. There's no excuse not to have all of them the moment you ding. I get that you feel entitled to Rk2, but the fact is that there's almost no difference for the vast majority of the spells, and if you want Rk2, then buy them in the Bazaar. 2. This is a somewhat valid point. Certainly not a big enough deal to hop on the anti-TDS bandwagon and tell everyone not to buy TDS to vote with their $ to save EQ from the evil Developers. 3. I don't know anyone who has been playing in TDS who didn't rapidly level to 105 even if they stayed in TDS. So, what are you talking about? 4. I'm not a serious raider, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm off base here, but my understanding is that CotF raids were beaten shockingly quickly. So, how is TDS worse? Go finish all the raids, and then come back and complain. Again, if it takes you less time than the $36 would have entertained you at a movie theater, I'd say that's a valid complaint. In the end, it's not the "nerf bat mentality" that caused your friends to quit, but more the people jumping on the sky is falling bandwagon and spreading carp.
Progression requires groups. Most of progression is in the world, so people tend to bump into other people on the same quest and have to opportunity to say "Hey, let's dump our mercs and group together." Also, by pushing people into the same small space, the same thing happens more. I admit, it's not a heck of a lot, but it's something.
You asked for specifics. I gave mine. I'm not interested in debating with you especially about why my friends quit, my "entitlement" to rank 2 spells, or in general about the anti-expansion bandwagon. Our play styles, game desires, and expectations are obviously different. If you enjoy the expansion, then more power to you. I have seen friends, guild-mates, and long standing players on our server quit. Denial about the reasons does the game no service. You are entitled to your opinion, show others the same courtesy.
1) It's not that we feel entitled to rk2, its that there should be a reliable way to get them like there has been since the creation of the Rk spell system. If you want to call that an entitlement, fine it is. 2) Missions were the main way I would gear friends up and get them spells etc. Now? Not even an option for current content. Taking away an option that has been established since..SoD I think...not cool. 3) I don't know anyone who has been playing in TDS who even leveled to 105 there at all. So what are you talking about? 4) It's going to be interesting to see how these raids play out. From my understanding they start off fairly difficult. Weren't the first few created by Absor? As an aside, in the end it's the nerf bat mentality that is being presented by the devs that is causing people to quit. If they would've released this expac as is but w/out the xp nerf to RoF and lower, it would have been better received (and therefore purchased by more people.) Nerfing XP before an xp launch is nothing new. (HoT chest rewards comes to mind immediately, but that was not entire expansion(s))
You're missing the point by nitpicking details of TDS. The nerf bat was swung at previous content, not TDS. People were viewing TDS harshly because it represented paying $40 to have it replace content they were using, as opposed to adding to it. The sad thing is that they probably would have liked TDS, had it not come with a bunch of nerfs. It's very much like Aesop's fable of the wind and the sun.
Try reading the other posts again. People have been detailing why they were unhappy with TDS. I don't think anyone feels the need to repeat it here for you yet once again. But I will say one of the things I do not like about it is that with quests in open zones a lot of the mobs available to exp on in open zones are quest mobs that give next to no exp. This makes the open zones far less useful then they would have been otherwise.
Or it could be the 'I'm getting fed up with SOE changing major mechanics with virtually no warning and no real reason given' mentality. I would have no issue with major changes if a) we were informed a long ways out, and b) they presented some rationale for why. I may not like it; I may not agree with the reason for them- but I'd have time to adjust and plan accordingly. (Like not spending most of my non-raiding time in COTF the last six months while planning to get back to my ROF 'bucket list' items after TDS came out.) I think that the lack of notice and communication regarding theses changes has been significantly worse than the actual changes (though I don't like those either). It makes it appear to many that SOE is either making major changes by the seat of their pants, or else has no qualms about jerking players around. Proactive expectation management well in advance would have resulted in a better reception, IMO. Bingo! Beryon has it right.
I'm going to preface my post by saying that I, personally, am enjoying TDS. On the flip side, me and my tendencies most likely do not represent the majority of the playerbase. I'd also like to say that this isn't directed at you directly, Qest, as I agree with a lot of your points. When I say "you," I'm really not referring to you specifically (sorry, it's kind of how I write). I'm also playing devil's advocate a bit; I'm not sure how I feel on these topics. I'm presenting the negative argument, but there are definitely positives as well. So, now my disclaimers are done: 1. I actually have, to my surprise, kind of enjoyed getting spells. I have all of my essentials covered, minus one glowing. For me personally, I gain a sense of accomplishment each time I get a Rk. II. On the other hand, anyone who plays with other people or more casually is going to be getting much fewer Rk. IIs than I have. Getting Rk. IIs for people who actually play this game as intended (in a 6 person group) must take forever, which I don't think should be the case. If people only have time to get maybe one Rk. II a week, I can see how it would be disappointing. To add to this, for many classes, Rk. Is are less powerful than the Rk III 96-100 versions, when factoring in the mash of focus decay, spell focus AAs, ability caps, etc. It is a bit depressing to level up and realize that you still have to use your old spells. Even the upgrades that do exist are very minor. So I can see how people could be frustrated with this system. 2. Mission chests made missions relevant more than just for the achievement. Granted, the missions are extremely bland kill missions for the most part, but I think this does kinda suck. 3. For those of us who play a lot, leveling to 105 was easy; for casual players it may take more time. I have no problem with leveling taking a bit longer, assuming it feels rewarding. I wish TDS had increased power a bit more, since it gives a sense of accomplishment. I know it would be "fake" since mob power would increase to compensate, but I think people become upset if they feel like they aren't moving. 4. These are Absor raids mostly, which pretty much universally have extremely annoying mechanics that few enjoy. I like challenging raids, but they air on the side of annoying rather than feeling like an actual challenge. CotF raids were mostly easy, but there are some of them I actually enjoy doing. There were also 12 real raids (counting PoW), as opposed to 5 here, with 2 extra annoying raids. CotF had a severe lack of content, and these are A) more annoying and B) even more scarce in quantity. I'll be honest and say I've only tried the first raid, but I've read through the writeups for all of them (and the "I'm going to make the final raid as hard as I can" thing is kinda scary). I think many of the issues with TDS were over exaggerated, but if people are unhappy, even if it's grounded on them over-reacting, it's bad for the game. You can claim all of the people quitting lack logic, but the game is still losing players, which is a negative. In general chat the other day, there was a zerker who was level 103 with only autogrant AAs asking where to XP. An under AA'ed (and probably under geared) zerker is going to have trouble moloing anything that provides him XP. My guess is he is probably not a spectacular player, on top of his lack of AA's/gear. XP in T1 TDS is awful, and it's not likely he will be killing anything there. XP in CotF is decent, but he can't molo that. RoF and before has been nerfed, making it much harder for him to gain XP there. Now, my automatic response consists of A) Find a group B) you should have AAed before leveling, and C) Knowing how to play your class should make up for a lack of AAs to some extent. However, there are tons of people who don't play their class anywhere near its potential. Can you really tell them they suck and should play better? Maybe you're right, but it's not going to make them play the game. You can also tell them that it isn't hard to find a group (I can have a group pretty much whenever I want one), but for an under-AA'ed, under-geared, and probably mostly friend-less casual player, it probably is pretty hard to get a group. I'm lucky in many ways. I have in game friends. I have close to max AAs and raid gear. I have a very helpful guild, and I have the ability to molo or box when I want to. Many people don't have any of that. What I'm seeing now is less HA pickup groups than previously, and I'm also seeing many people LFG for different parts of progression. I think the pre-CotF XP nerf made it harder to XP without a group, which I hadn't considered originally. At the same time, HAs actually require groups for many, and PuGs for HAs are less common with the lockouts and the new expansion. I have mixed feelings about progression, but I do wish it wasn't so linear, since from what I see it somewhat hurts grouping. From what I've seen by observing general, many people are on different parts of progression. Since many people can only get to certain zones, LFG people can't necessarily meet up. This is especially true for those further in progression, since less people can go to those zones to help them. Now, there are valid suggestions, like join a helpful guild, go back to help people, etc. However, it's hard to tell frustrated people that they're doing something wrong. They may be overreacting; their opinions may be unsubstantiated, but they're upset and I can't see a good reason why that's ok.
I'm enjoying TDS so far. I'm level 105, nearly done with AA, have finished the progression that rewards you with being able to request raids and receive a broken Trophy of the Seafarer, and my guild has beaten some raids. I'm enjoying it. Further, there are some nice items in group content I'm drooling over a bit. However: 1. I agree that it's difficult to make it through the progression without a regular group or should guildmates not help those looking to do a progression mission. 2. I agree that the progression needing to be done in order makes things more difficult. You'd have more luck finding a group if anyone doing any mission in Arx could invite and help progress you. 3. The group progression is not skip it if you don't feel like doing it. You can't exp or hunt named mobs in areas you haven't opened up by completing progression. I think it's better to have the zones accessable without requiring much effort and the better loot droppers by completing some -progression. Items 2 and 3 magnify the importance of item #1. I'm not convinced that devs encourage people to group by requiring you to get a group to progress. The problem isn't a lack of willingness to obtain a group but the difficulty in getting one willing to do something that progresses you. I'm not have that kind of problem however it's very clear that others, many others, might.
