A civil discussion about leveling up in, and the difficulty of TBM.

Hey, I just wanted to make this post to give some feedback and some impressions of how things have been going for me in the last couple weeks since I've made a determined effort to level and gear up in the current expansion of TBM.

The details of my situation are as follows, I'll try to sum up a bit. I returned to EQ about 7 or 8 weeks ago and leveled up a ranger on the bristlebane server from scratch. I heroic'd at level 84 and subbed 2 additional accounts and made a heroic warrior and shaman. From here I did the j5 merc quests and all the heroic aug quests. After that I did a bunch of anniversary stuff. Got stones of power and black pearls and drunkard steins, and bricks of knowledge etc... I'm taking my time a bit and trying to build solid characters with the end goal to hit max level and join a raid guild.

After getting that all out of the way I started doing dead hills HA to level up. I actually did quite a few different HA and hot zone quests until level 90 and the zones started really not being worth the trouble. At 92 I bought a krono and sold it so I could buy some current level gear for my warrior. I set up a trader and made a little bit of plat on my own but between that and squeezing out what upgrades I could I just couldn't keep up and the heroic gear was getting pretty outdated.

Once my warrior had mostly all level 92 gear and my ranger had a new bow, weapons, and few pieces of armor I leveled to 95 with out much difficulty. It was a bit boring doing dead hills over and over but honestly everything I tried to do, or when I tried to branch out and do other HA's from CoTF or pick a zone to grind in, it just seemed like I was wasting my time.

At 95 I decided to give TBM a try and that's currently where I am now. My warrior is now 96. He levels faster than my other characters so the ranger and shaman are both 95. The warrior has all 92 gear from bazaar with 3 pieces of TBM gear auged for lvl 95 along with 30 to 40 ac augs in almost every slot. He's pretty much as beefy as could be expected at 95 unless I had leveled him up entirely in TBM. He has just a hair over 90k hp and 9k ac when merc and shaman buffed.

Here's where things get interesting. The heroic adventures in TBM are significantly harder than CoTF. I don't really have an issue with this since after all it is 2 expansions ahead. I'm not so sure they should be tuned quite this hard for lower levels tho. If I pull 2 trash mobs there's a real possibility that my warrior will go down if I'm not really on my game with the shaman slowing and healing etc... Like I said I don't really mind this but I'm just pointing out that these HA's are no joke.

On top of that the task "we make our own rewards" which overall is pretty simple has a mob at the end of the task that's like a mini boss or a named I guess (tho he doesn't drop any loot) has a single target DD for 92k. My warrior with unfettered growth from the shaman tops out around 96k. But my ranger who's gear is not too shabby can't hit 90k. So this mob, which mind you is at the end of this HA task and is the last mob you need to kill before you get the chest basically death touches one group member at a time every 5 - 10 seconds until my whole party is dead.

This happens over and over. There's really no way I can see to stop it. I've tried many times. Also I spawned a named in that same task it was a ghoul named Gurndal the Something I can't remember. This little buddy of mine hits my full disc'ing warrior for 50k melee rounds as well as casts a AE dot that does 45k per tick. After 4 attempts I finally got him to 86% before I wiped.

So I'll end by making a few observations out loud and probably asking s few questions.

Can I expect that most of the names are going to be unkillable in any of these HA's? Or did I just stumble across the hardest ones

Let me be clear that I do not just want things handed to me. I don't mind putting in the work and time to make a solid character. I like when things are a challenge, that's why I make so many attempts at hard events and mobs because I like being able to learn and grow and overcome these tough battles. It makes me a better a player.

I have to say tho, that I strongly feel that at least a few of these HA's do not seem to scale down properly to where a reasonable group of good players could consistently do these HA's and actually level up and gear up in current content.

Unless I could get raid gear some how for level 95 there really is not a whole lot of room for improvement gear wise for my characters. I just don't see how 90k+ DD's and 45k+ dots is balanced properly for level 95.. How are returning players supposed to thrive in this environment? I mean a warrior, ranger, shaman, 2 cleric mercs and a rogue merc seems to be a pretty decent setup. Up until now things have been pretty well tuned.

Do I just need give up on TBM and level up in DH? It's just so boring. I really do want to play and learn the new content but I just don't think they properly scale.

Sorry, I know most of you are are probably max level and this may seem like whining. That's not my intent. It's not going to stop me from reaching max level. I can always do my DH's till I'm blue in the face. I'm just hoping they might take a look at the scaling a bit and just lower these spell damages a bit.

Has anyone else recently tried to level up in TBM and experienced this? I can't believe I'd be the only one. I always do give something my all before I admit defeat. So I tried everything I had with the mobs. 3 healer mercs 1 reactive 1 on balanced 1 on efficient. Tried one healer and 2 rogues. I always cast HoT's from shaman on the warrior as well as apathy, counter bias, etc.. I use full defensives on warrior and full burn with the ranger. I wouldn't claim to be the best boxer in the world or anything but I have a pretty solid setup with pretty solid characters and I can't even get close to beating some of these tasks.

Sorry for the long rant.

Any advice?

Agree?

Disagree?

Let me know what you guys think.

My advice, level up a little. Yes, that mob hits hard. (and it was recently changed from hitting 150kish)

We make our own rewards I'm reasonably sure I'm the person you spoke to about this in general chat this morning (I'm the 105 monk that offered to join you)

Gurndal The Graceful casts a VERY unfriendly :
Slot 1: Decrease Current Hit Points by 46154 per tick
Slot 2: Increase Corruption Counter by 50

Guardian Elle used to cast Guardian Strike and now, Guardian Relph casts Guardian Swing.

TBM really is a 105 level expansion (With a few minor things for lower level toons.)

Extra levels will add more Armor, more resists, etc to your character(s). (And the ability to remove more counters via shaman) This mission is duoble at 105, with a little trouble, or trio'd (with 3 mercs), a lot easier.

TBM is end game content; group and raid. If you are under level 102 and by yourself or boxing, you really have no business being there because it will serve no purpose other than to frustrate you. Most mobs in those TBM zones are level 105-108/109. If you have a real group of people helping you, you'll find the content is rather easy with the exception of a few group missions.

I suggest if you want to do the higher end stuff, put a real group together for it Good luck!

I do not box and I find TBM to be easier kills than Arx by a lot. Arx leashed mobs to the point of stupidity. My problem with TBM is the end missions have nothing to do with anything else. Anashti Sul, the enslaver of souls is unbearably hard for a group. We beat Anashti Sul Damsel of Decay by luck. I am not saying the missions need to be a cake walk, but the group missions need to be toned down a tad. Not all of us walk about in raid gear. I like the expansion OK, though I feel it was a little cheap using all the same maps. If they were going to go all out on the end missions for group, I would prefer the other missions to use the same logic. Say, you kill crystals and mobs, then in one you run an aura pool, then in the other you heal or not.. by the time you get to the end missions you have some understanding of what is needed and it sort of melds everything together in cohesion.

Enslaver of Souls is basically a DPS race. Its actually easier than Damsel of Decay, but lets not digress.

I would venture out to RoF zones and do partisans, or at least try to do some other HAs (Marla Gaslow ones are good XP, as are the daily HA quests). It might not be as fast as Gribbles, but it'll be a lot more enjoyable and may give some rewards (e.g. Eastern Wastes trophy) that you'd have to go back and get anyway.

I feel for the OP. I believe his point, correct me if I am wrong, is that if they give HA's for level 95s, should they not be tuned to lvl 95s? The only thing that might help the OP in this instance would be to ensure you have a full group of non boxed characters. That can make a significant difference in abilities. I personally, and generally to the direct opposite of many forum posters, feel that content tagged as group content is usually over tuned. This is EQ and how it has been since the GoD/OOW era and I believe will likely be the entirety of EQ's future. Many people have found that the ability to play the game they enjoy in the way they enjoy does not always lend itself easily with EQ. My suggestion other than to play with 5 other players would be as others have stated, try going lower rather than higher. I solod my beastlord from levels 1-100 with only the odd group. I started in luclin and took many years doing so. I always tend to be 2-3 expansions behind the current in my group based gear.

Another option might be to roll over to FV. I personally find it the most enjoyable experience in EQ (other than the TLPs) currently. I raided for a few months there and realized that current group content is a complete push over with raid gear. On FV you can purchase your raid gear rather than raid for it if you prefer. This makes leveling and progressing your characters much less painful.

Yeah that was kinda my point Gotar. Why claim that TBM is for for level 75 and up when really it's not. There is no realastic way that a group of people that are returning to the game could come back, sub accounts, buy heroic characters, and play in the latest and greatest expansion.

That's okay I guess, I'll just have to go back CoTF. Or RoF as suggested. The problem is I feel it's pretty much a waste of time. What's the point of gearing up in anything but TBM stuff? It's so much better than anything else.

Why design the game that is this huge, with this much potential content, to be choked down to 3 boring HA's? I understand it's by no means required to level up using Grbbles, but why make everything else such a chore in comparison?

I'm not saying you'd have to increase the exp for anything else. Just lower the difficulty a touch for lower levels in TBM. Give us some incentive to do something other than just level up as fast as possible in Grbbles so we can play with the new toys.

Deranged, the problem with that is that many of the current player base really don't want new (or returning) players to play what they do. They want them to slog through years of back content to get to what they are doing (since they did it that way). I don't know the correct answer for how to make things work other than to love EQ enough to enjoy it for what it is or not play it. Many vocal players feel that if they allow things for others, it hurts their game play and would run off their similar players. Others want to come back or continue to enjoy the game at a different pace and would love QOL or group/raider gear distinction being lowered. They feel this would add more players (and thus more $). The entire discussion is really moot, however, as the development team has the final say in all that happens. We can hope, beg, and try to coerce our opinions across, but we must accept what is.

Sounds about right. I'll show them (the developers). I'll grind gribbles from now thru next weekend, hopefully it will be double exp next weekend. That should get me 105 and then I win the game!

If you can hang in cotf, I would start with doing the partisan/mercenary quests for each zone. That might include doing different HA's, not just gribbles. You get heroic AA rewards for completing them and it gets you into the groove of completing the quests and forgetting about the exp grind. You can get the info for the quests at eqresource or allakhazam quick links off to the right of the screen.

I'd think that ideally someone should be able to get a level 85 Heroic, do the J5 quest and get the augs then start on the TBM HA's and progression and be better rewarded than grinding old content

code-zero, I agree in a perfect game that would be true. The problem is that if that is allowed, then someone else will feel let down by it. Unless everyone agrees then we cannot have everyone happy

For the most part, I tend to agree that a number of the TBM HAs do not scale down well into the 90s.

I also believe that you are in the absolutely worst period of the game for a tank . . . level 96 wearing level 92 group 1 gear. The only way I can see that working out well is if it involved raid gear. Much will likely change when you hit level 100 and can acquire either CotF group 2 or TDS group 1 & 2 gear . . . or better.

The other point possibly worth mentioning is that boxing without software assistance causes time lags between actions and some TBM missions are not very forgiving in that regard. Good players anticipate and act accordingly in a group. That difference lengthens the apparent time lag when no software assistance is involved.

(When I box, I use macros also and no 3rd party software. The delays and mistakes are all too apparent. That may be why Almar's guide starts with his software recommendation for a box group.)

There is also an issue of group makeup with the three you have chosen, but considering you main a Ranger and have the best overall tank in a warrior, the question might come down to whether the shaman is the best choice without software assistance. I do not know, others are likely more experienced in this regard than am I, but an enchanter . . .

Please keep up the great communication! It is very much appreciated.

The other issue you have is playing a warrior. They are the most gear intensive class in the game, especially for doing challenging encounters. There is a huge group gear gap between 92 and 100, and even more so from 100 to 105. That isn't even including all the augs, that can add up to a nice chunk of additional AC.

If you are working towards the end game with sights on being a raider. CotF progression really isn't a bad start where you are at, since as you complete each zone you start building your veterens heroics which are a great bonus.

In addition, if you can farm augs in camps that still provide reasonable exp, its a win/win.

Ruven

Ruven_BB thats a good suggestion. Not only the where/what but why you would want to do it. The why is the most important thing sometimes!

The TBM HAs are mostly fine from 85-105. I three boxed (no 3rd party software) a set of heroics through with autogrant AA and crap gear with little issue. Some of the named did not appear to scale correctly, but the trash and any "mini" targets were all doable in all four of the spirit armor missions as well as Under the Robe, Decay Decreased and Undead Underground. I didn't try any others while leveling with that group.

That said, it's not the place to go for experience. The first win of each has ok experience including the partisan reward. Otherwise, you'll get between 3-6% per run. Far below what you'd get from a cotf HA with the same time commitment. The only reason to do TBM HAs while leveling up is for the chest and currency.

If you're bored of cotf HAs, go to the zones in the expansion for that level range. The cotf HAs remain the most efficient means of leveling (great exp + currency for level 100 and below gear all in one), but are not the only option. From 101-105, some TDS t3 zones are good experience, but you'll need to do progression to reach them. At 105, TBM static zones have good AA exp if you find named camps that are densely populated.

Group Warriors should be a bit more gear independent since the introduction of Defensive Proficiency, make sure you've trained and are using the Weapon Stances AA located in the Archetype tab (it unlocked at level 85 but wasn't introduced until CotF). At level 96, a CotF discipline called No Time to Bleed became available and you should be sure to pick that up too, it's a flat reduction rune that lasts for 3 minutes that should help your tanking. Also, you can keep your AC boosted by about 1600 points while tanking harder hitters by channeling Stout Defense and keeping yourself buffed with Field Defender. If Geri did talk to you, it means you're on my server. Feel free to send Koryu a tell or in-game email anytime, I don't mind teaching/sharing Warrior info.

HAs are claimed to scale down to 75. While the normal trash is scaling correctly, the boss of that mission is not scaling. Named are also bad at scaling, but those don't block players from finishing the mission to get rewards.

It's not a 'git gud' thing. It's something that was never tested, and won't be fixed until someone complains loudly enough for a dev to hear. Or it just never gets fixed, because everquest.

Your group is war/rng/shm, plus 3 mercs? Depending on how active you are, one clr and two wizards should be your standard merc loadout. The shm does not help rogue mercs out enough for them to beat wizards.

Don't try to hold out forever against hard mobs, get them dead ASAP. Dead mobs deal 0 dps. It's not really going to help against death touches, but burning better will get you further than more merc healers.

Personally I think the game offers so much more than leveling and if you are doing CotF till you are bored with it you'll burn out fast. If you want to earn the xp while working through CotF I would recommend you work through the partisan and Mercenary progression as well.

At 95 it you work your way through the House of Thule Partisan, Mercenary, and Mission progression I think those adventures were well set up, though at 95 96 you are at about max level to get decent xp.. Also a lot of the Shard's landing Mercenary and Partisan Quests are fun.

Best of luck and I enjoy reading your journals.