Would you change the Classic Rogue class?

"Decades" sounds a little exaggerated. Go play a rogue on Agnarr (PoP) and you will notice they're really good DPS once geared and AA'ed and actually quite fun to play. Still can't solo anything though without spamming healing pots.

Yes. Classic rogue and paladin should be boosted a bit. Daybreak has shown they'll nerf classes, they should do the opposite when needed as well.

A simple rework of rogue poisons to match the SOD/Underfoot poisons would fix classic rogues. Poisons are pretty much trash until SoD on TLPs.

In it's current state, low level poisons would be overpowered in Classic, but they could easily revamp it for TLPs.

I genuinely love this idea, so i will just emphasize this one. I wouldnt even mess with the numbers on it (it has a 30s recast anyway) Intimidation as a mez instead of a fear makes it significantly more useful of a tool for the entirety of the game, and doesn't hurt the actual concept of it.

Last time I checked this was the TLP forums, not the level 120 version of the game that the vast majority of TLP players have zero interest in ever playing (most will quit TLP before GoD). So thus, anything you mention is irrelevant.

Imagine how silly you sound too.

Imagine if you're playing WoW classic and complaining that Druids are bad at tanking, and someone from Retail pops in and is like actually Druids are the strongest tanks right now, 20 years in the future, so no, they don't need any balance changes to be viable in classic, because 20 years from now they will be awesome.

Except in this case it's even worse because in true classic, Rogues were always a top tier DPS with badass stealth. Right now Rangers are better at stealth than Rogues (can move at SoW Speed while invis, invis their group mates, and lull passed see invis mobs).

What's even funnier is, Unrest for instance, did not require keys in true classic. It does now. So Rogues should shine on a new server, at lower levels, since everyone levels in Unrest, right? Nope. No low level Rogue can use pick lock in Unrest. A huge missed opportunity.

Read the post directly above his. he was answering a question

Rogues in classic were basically made for a D&D style set of gameplay that simply never emerged in EQ. It was part of the original vision and it just never happened. The one utility that did sort of persist itself for awhile was corpse dragging.

Rogues were lacking for the longest time, they introduced berserkers instead of fixing issues with rogues and by the time a lot of the rogue issues are addressed, the game is much later and you are trading class issues with archetype issues (melee in general on live).

With that out of the way :

Chaotic Stab being baselined or functionality of backstab being altered via auto granted AA prior to luclin and/or with additional AA added to luclin and forward.

The biggest problem rogues have in classic is that your damage output depends on other people not flipping,moving or otherwise disrupting mob placement. If you backstab from the front in classic, you don't even functionally use an attack. It's an auto miss. No other skill has this drawback... and you'll find that once you can't corner mobs anymore you don't have any way to truly avoid this.

Fix that, and put the good poisons in the game from the base. Set em to have TLP values the way SK harm touch and other abilities due to specific prior expansions and such to balance em.

Chaotic stab itself wouldn't make rogue dps go up, but I'd like to see em introduce new rogue aas anyway if only to fill in giant empty gaping holes in AA that both warriors and rogues have compared to other classes.

That said, intimidation is fine for what it is... its a vaguely unreliable fear and I've actively used it for that. It combos semi well with the fact rogues get a series of snare weapons on resist checks other classes don't have access to though you don't start seeing them until velious and luclin.

I think there's many misconceptions on this topic
#1 what is classic?
#2 what is so bad about rogues?

#1: Classic is rough for a all pure melee since everyone depends on gear, yes including monks. How is a warrior any better when they don't have any threat weapons, or a rogue without a top tier piercer. Rogues do fine, and the definition of fine is: As long as you want to min/max, fight for group buffs/bard songs wolf form , resist etc.. etc.. you will always perform as the top 1-4 meleet. So the secondary question is , is being on the top 5 ''bad''?

#2 Kunark: Epic changes everything, rogues become OP since we will get our epics way before any melee and when the other pure melee get theirs, we will remain on the top 1-3 as well.

So in my opinion ; No; The only thing I would change about classic "as in non-kunark" is the players playing rogue. Either you play rogue wanting to Min-Max or go play as a monk#313 in your guild.

I respect your opinion but would like to suggest that at least they should make it a way higher success rate when the skill is trained to max so it becomes somewhat useful. Right now it's nearly worthless or very, very niche at best.

Players are customers. Customers are by definition entitled because they pay money to play a MMORPG. The concept of modern day "entitlement" is the wrong way to look at this. The way I think it should be viewed is that customers have reasonable expectations. If you play a rogue, you have the expectation that your class will be fun to play, intrinscially rewarding and useful to groups and raids in both utility and DPS.

I agree that players who believe they have a right to experiencing all content is not healthy. Players need to work for the right to unlock and see higher level zones.

Blizzard figured out that players who play in fantasy worlds want to feel heroic. That was the deslgn philosophy basis for all of the classes at launch in WoW. Blizzard when ahead and filled those player expecations. Rogues in WoW have massive amounts of utility and are fun to play. EQ rogues, not so much. Of course all classes should have strengths and weaknesses.Players can mitigate those weaknesses using skill and strategy. That's part of the fun.

Rogues are one of the least played classes in EQ. Why is that?

Imagine if you've never played EQ before and your favorite fantasy class is a rogue. You roll a rogue in EQ and after a few weeks you realize they are awful. That person is likely to quit EQ and never play again.

Playing a class that LFG for hours that nobody wants, is really a denial of service and a symptom of poor design. That should not be happening in any classe base MMO.

Class balance while impossible to obtain, should at least be strived for. Nobody wants to play a MMO where everyone is playing just a handful of classes. Remember the Ultima Online tank-mage problem? Chronic class imbalance is a sign of an unhealthy MMORPG and negligence. Fortunately, EQ is a work in progress so deficient classes can be fixed.

Small easy tweaks like giving rogues added utility by adding a kick on a seperate cooldown that can interupt casters would go a long way in making them more viable.

Perhaps someday in the future, Darkpaw will hire a designer that is passionate about class balance. I have a feeling that the rogue in the new EQ game yet to be announced will not have the issues that the EQ1 version has. Times have changed. Players will simply not put up with gimped RPG classes in new games, nor should they.

I mean, what other aspect of rogue utility would say isn't worthless or niche? I can make arguments for things way in the future of expansion progression... but regardless, intimidation isn't a rogue specific ability...

Yeah, rogues and monks get the skill. I suggested to make it a short term mez (like Screaming Terror) which would turn the long term fear into a useful CC utility.

The more I think about it, Rogues are just nerfed in every way imaginable on TLPs, lol. Like Rogues backstab used to do minimum backstab damage when backstab fired from the front instead of being behind mob. May not have been ideal, but it was usually comparable with a flying kick in terms of damage. Now until you get Chaotic Stab, backstabs from the front (which happen a lot when the mob is shifting around or you are solo'ing) just count as regular pierces.

Meanwhile people are saying that Paladins and Clerics need buffs for early TLPs and it's like what are you basing this on? They're already dramatically buffed from the way they were in classic. Paladins get spells at level 1, and Clerics can start rezzing people at level 10. They were never this strong in classic.

It's like they took a class that actually was strong in classic (Rogue) and made it completely weak, and then took classes that were weak like Rangers, or Clerics, and made them dramatically stronger than they ever were. There's no logic here, and it just comes across as laziness.

Sure would be awkward if Rogues did get short term Mez abilities, wouldn't it? Well, awkward for the people asking, and the people who are claiming it would be ridiculous for that to happen.

But, as someone who's mained a rogue on every TLP I've played on, as well as on live.

Increase piercer damage in early game, Put in the bite of the shissar poisons in classic and that should ease pain of classic.

GoD and Beyond? some of our discs are up more often than monks and zerkers, allowing us to burn more often, and in general on non burns the difference between Monks zerkers and Rogues isn't as huge as people make it out to be.

My favorite nerf is how rogues don't get assassinate until... uhh, depths of dark hollow even though on p99 you get it in kunark.

But also, I don't want intimidate to be a short mez because my rogue already has 3 of them on different cooldowns and I don't really think a janky awkward takes 18 seconds to maybe work mez is an improvement of any kind.

The chaotic stab no functional button use from front backstab thing is what will prevent me from ever making a rogue on an early tlp ever again.

lol