Would you change the Classic Rogue class?

Rogue's specifically on TLP's. Starting in classic.

Should there be any consideration of rework on the following for rogue's:

• Make Poison
• Apply Poison
• Backstab
• Intimidation

It's not just my imagination right, this is the worst class in classic EverQuest?
Honestly, just curious if most people agree or are most people like, "the class is fine and it should be left alone."
.
.
.
Considerations to revamp:

• Make Poison
  • Costly, can't stack fills up your bags with (pretty much) useless items.. yay...
• Apply Poison
  • Applies one time for a one and done.. this would be useful if... the mobs didn't treat it like a charm spell and were able to break it on server ticks with a resist check.
• Backstab
  • Pretty mediocre damage.. Leveling up, my backstabs are just hitting for what a monk normally punches for, it's like they're back stabbing with every auto attack. Feels bad..
• Intimidation
  • This could be useful if it was reliable. Right now it's just like "I'll add it to my macro and spam it all day WHOOPS, out of the 453 attempts, it worked when the mob was at 100% and trained/wiped my whole group!"
    • At least it makes for funny stories...? Feels bad again.

I feel like I should of named my rogue Redheadedstepchild.
I guess at a minimum if none of these will be considered, would a Dev just chime in and say why you hate rogue's so much. Show us on the doll where the rogue pickpocketed you.

It seems to me the cleanest fix would be to add piercing weapon augs on the melee aug vendors that adds to a piercing weapon's Backstab DMG stat. This would prevent other classes from simply juicing up a piercing weapon's ratio, while allowing rogues to see their core damage ability make more of a difference throughout the leveling arc.

I would assume the aug would most likely need to be +1 Backstab DMG, but perhaps +2 Backstab DMG would work. The LDoN +1dmg, +1poison dmg, +1 backstab dmg aug would still be an upgrade.

I really agree with the first 2 points, poison is a total waste of effort. The pots should stack, that is a massive problem. and/or they should have better effects. if they dont stack, then they should do a lot more damage, or have a much bigger impact. If they do stack, then it is reasonable they are less effective.

But the current model, the poisons are all a total waste of time, and they fill up your bag, are annoying to apply, and dont change anything in the fight.

Compare that to alchemy, which is so much better.

Baseline chaotic stab to fix the fact that you literally do 0 damage with backstab when you can't hit from behind. Add in revamped poisons to classic, adjust damage ALA sk harm touch until x expansion if they are too good as is. I can think of dozen of other fixes, but would involve revamping how the class plays and works and I was never able to lobby for it in many many years of playing a rogue and I don't consider now to be any different.

Yes. But I also support massive changes to classes at the start of each TLP. Specifically, introducing rules to the fundamentals of the class that would persist (possibly with post-release tweaking) throughout the entire lifetime of the server but generally not be introduced to other servers. This would keep things fresh and introduce new ways to consider the classes.

This is done in some games like Path of Exile's seasons ( ex: https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Breach_league ) where rule changes are published and players pick new builds and develop strategies during the seasons.

I haven't given any thought to what could be done to rogues, but just briefly, something that involved centering more of the class around stealth, pickpocket, backstab or traps would be interesting.

Players in EQ have deep-seated attachments to classes, such that someone will always play a shaman or shadowknight or necro class and dramatically changing that class, especially in ways players think turns it into a dumpster heap, would have a negative impact on those players. But I still think it'd be worth doing. If you published rules on class changes for TLP 2024, a player still chose that class and those rules made the class into a subpar choice, that just means the player failed the game rather than the game failing the player.

to answer your question, no i would not change rogue. some classes are top early in expansions, some get better later, it's all part of the game.

Yes, I'd revamp make/apply poisons to actually be cost effective and useable
Yes, I'd give them an accuracy buff across the board on backstab and auto attack - the dmg on piercers isn't as big a problem as the horrendous accuracy
I'd fiddle with the idea of giving double backstab earlier with more % chance

spend 5 plat for a resistable chance to deal 5 damage to a mob 1 time. And pickpocket was nerfed to not steal plat so you can't fund it by picking hill giant pockets any more. They removed the rogue's ability to generate platinum form pickpocket but didn't touch the cost to make utterly worthless single use poisons.

Rogues are in a very rough spot, and a lot of the utility they once had has been diminished over the years. It was great to have a rogue for CRs back when people were worried about leaving their gear buried deep in a dungeon. Their damage isn't competitive enough to justify playing one over a monk, especially in the first few expansions.

As others have suggested, give them augs that have a backstab modifier at the very minimum.

Also, why not revamp poisons to for instance apply a buff that has a set number of procs, similar to how poisons are changed in later expansions. It might actually encourage people to bother with them.

Unless you just love role-playing a rogue, there really is no reason to play one in the first few expansions since they pale in comparison to other dps classes.

People have been complaining about them for years and I doubt that they will ever be buffed, but some of these changes could be extremely easy to implement (the augs)

Nope. Just the player.

Imo then Rogues would be fixed on TLPs if the lvl20 disc Sneak Attack were to be made available to them already in Classic.

Lol because they would steal the plat off mobs in groups leaving everyone high and dry. I would be ok with them pickpocketing 2-3 plat or whatever if it was a 1 time per mob and was independent of the actual plat that drops.

We're almost 25 years into a game, it will eventually die. Let's try updating a few underperforming classes so the folks who want to try a rogue early can do some okay damage.

No one is asking for rogues to get heat vision.

The classes in this game are very poorly designed. There's no class that I wouldn't change.

It needs to a realistic change, the devs don't have time to do anything big.

Doze's idea of changing Sneak Attack discipline to be available in Classic is easy and a good start.

I've proposed this before, but they should really just raise the backstab damage stat on all piercers through lv 80 or so by 1 or 2 points. Now that backstab damage is decoupled from weapon damage it would not impact anything else in the game other than giving rogues a much needed boost.

I don't think this is a controversial take, but an equally geared/played rogue should parse higher than a monk in pretty much every era, and this is not the case for at least the first several years of every tlp.

As a rogue veteran:

Full damage from all angles for backstab starting at lvl 10.

Change the ratio on the 1.0 from 15-25 to 16-20 or 17-21. Somewhere around a .8 ratio(still less of a ratio than monk 1.0 fists at .88(60)-.92(65) It's supposed to be EPIC, not barely above average for Kunark weapons and worse than Velious weapons. This weapon will last them until PoTime in their offhand.

Change poisons so they actually do something worthy early on in the game and they last as a buff in the song window for 1 hour duration.

Autogrant Shroud of stealth from the get go. Rogues should be able to go wherever they want and stealthily grab corpses like no one else. Early on this would vastly improve raid wipes.

Later on in the game:

Change the 2.0 to the same ratio as the 2.5.

Increase the BiS piercer damage by 1-2 points for each expac TSS to HoT at least.

Make an earlier set of those proc poisons to TSS(lvl 75) loot tables. Maybe a 250 dmg DD?

Just some random brain storming... I doubt they'll ever do much if anything at all, I still thoroughly enjoy the class with all my heart.

I mean wouldn't the simplest option be to adjust 1 hand pierce weapon damage? It was kept low to keep backstab damage in check, but after backstab damage was turned into it's own number older weapons were never adjusted ??

Poison won't be enough to make Rogues relevant in TLP (which they should be). Bite of the Shissar doesn't even make Rogues relevant when it releases. They literally have to wait until after PoP to just catch up to Monks (I mean literally just catch up, it's not like Rogues will suddenly out DPS them the second GoD drops -- but it's irrelevant because Berserkers come out at the same time and blow passed Rogues regardless).

The simple solution isn't to buff Rogues. The simple solution is to simply nerf Monks. Monks have the best ratio weapons in Kunark and Velious. Making their fists true classic wouldn't break them, in fact, they would still be the most popular melee class. Their fists would still be relevant in classic, and they would still have the best ratio weapons in Kunark, and Velious.

Doing this would also make other melees like Rangers, way more viable. But nah. Would make too much sense.

Edit: In classic I literally have to drag Rogues corpses for them because they can't invis passed most mobs. How pathetic and sad is that. Rangers are literally better at invis than Rogues are because they can move at full movement speed and lull passed see invis mobs.

Introduce a poison Proc AA that triggers off of backstab, has a short term duration that makes it less than 100% uptime, scales with level up to a certain level (like HT and LoH), and has a reasonable reuse timer (5 or 10 minutes).

No need to overhaul / re-itemize the inventory available in classic, the class’ skills / damage tables, or create new items only for rogues.