Not to mention that those 4 secs of AE stuns actually increase danger for the paladin as it syncs up melee rounds. You'll take considerably spikier damage if the stun actually lands on the max (8) mobs from using your AE aggro abilities (that incidentally also have a stun component). I do just fine on non-level cap increase years, but have to completely re-adjust my gameplay as dps swells with a new expansion of spells/abilities/weapons and our abilities stagnate until the non-level cap increase expansion. Can I still do my job...sure, is it considerably harder than playing an SK, absolutely.
You frustrate me to no end. You are without a doubt one of the best paladins in the game, and you should be someone who I should be able to see eye to eye with. You can say things like this, and yet when I make a post saying the exact same thing all you do is talk about how paladins are just as good at their jobs as SKs. If it takes a 10/10 effort on the paladin and a 4/10 effort on the SK to do the same job, then paladins are not as good. A 10/10 effort on the SK is a tier of god tank that paladins can NOT reach.
My original response got deleted which is sad. I wish I could have only spent 100 hours over 24 years. That you dont know how much I have effected SK and paladin class balance over the years is a you problem not mine.
Comments which quoted other comments that are deleted are also deleted. (Feel free to PM me if you need further explanation or clarification)
TBF, the feeling is mutual. I think you'd get more movement on paladin improvements if it didn't come from the 'paladins cannot do anything' camp. Our AE aggro took a hit this expansion with stagnation of valiant. I've agreed for years that our AE aggro tools that are AA should be reduced to a 45s cooldown and that still wouldn't put us on par with SKs due to the spell gem AE hate that can be generated. I could easily get behind increasing valiant witness aggro hate, reduction of our AE AAs cooldown or a combination. SKs are easy mode tanks, that's why they are a dime a dozen and there are only a handful of paladins in the game. Our burst DPS is fine, what I would love is a rise in our bottom line, a better base sustained dps against live mobs.
The issue is saying "paladins are fine, they are just fine". Well, druids and paladins can both do damage. Hence their dps "is fine". Yet your not gonna see a guild very sad if it doesn't have either. I guess its nice to have a single paladin around for that buff some people want? Paladins are not "fine". Yes, they can survive and do the bare minimum. However, this ignores the fact that the qusetion "why not an sk" never has a good answer. Just handwavey roleplay/flavor stuff. Yes, paladins are "ok. SK are ultra op god mode golden child level class. Since they are competitors, that makes paladins very "not fine" however.
I have to frame my comments in such a way that it is not me asking for a nerf to SKs. Thats literally against the rules. My thought process has always been to find areas of similarity, especially in the spell lines that are meant to mirror each other between SKs and paladins and then highlight the extreme imbalances that exist in such a way as to try to achieve a boost for the paladin instead of a nerf to the SK. That may come off as complaining, but there is no other option and our hands are tied. Insisting that paladins are fine because we can do most of what SKs do if we put in extreme effort is just not going to get any kind of movement in the balance equation. My SK persona hit 125 like 2 weeks ago, and with just autogrant AA, nothing in my special tab AA such as banestrike, hero's barracks, fortitude, resolution and vitality and no prior experience with the class other than the things that innately are expected of tanks and knights in general it was like a freakin joke how easy/proficient things went. I was able to tank piles of mobs and literally get up and walk to the kitchen and come back and everything was fine.
That's the best part, my comment that got deleted didn't quote anyone! I just said the troll is gonna grow up big and strong if people keep feeding it!
I played a pally as my first character, back in 1999. I knew there was an issue with DPS, when my friend, who played a wizard, out dps me on a mob, with just melee lol. Stuns were pretty nice back then and I liked being able to buff a bit. Also, wanted the fabled Ghoulbane, which I camped forever lol. I play an SK now, have for years and years. I liked the paladin class better, but no FD, much worse epic, and DPS is just too low on non undead. DPS is better than healing in the group game, that is already easy tank and to heal with a merc.
Paladins dwarf themselves.. yet another example of blatant anti-SK exaggeration, we cannot force other players into different races.
Dwarves can't be SKs so I don't understand how an SK can Dwarf anyone. I'm pretty sure only Enchanters can Dwarf others.
There are many persons who refrained (out of either a sense of principle or pride) from making accusations. However, Personas have granted the ability to see first hand. It isn't even close. In a group setting each and every Paladin tool I have used to 'save' the day is obsolete. They are tools for when 'things go wrong'. It turns out that tools to prevent things going wrong in the first place trumps 'save the day firefighting'.
Just give the Pallys a "Turn mob into undead" spell. Make sure it has a great aggro component and ups your ac. That ought keep em happy for a bit.
Don't Necros have a spell like that? Make it last 15 minutes on raid mobs and I am good... ;-) I do not need that myself. That aside, I started this thread specifically to discuss the differences between Pally and SK EPIC and not all things Paladin vs. all things SK. If people want to broaden the scope to that, be my guest. As I stated in this thread before, I do not think Pallies are remotely as weak as some people make them out to be. And for the most part I am okay with where we are. In fact, I had people from the Open Raids we did tell me they felt Pallies were OP (I was the only Pally there most times and I even had an SK tell me that). I have offered them to help them renounce their poor underpowered classes to join the awesome OPness that is the Pally, but was refused. So since this thread has (as usual) disintegrated in "SKs are OP and Pallys suck." "No" "Yes" "No" "Yes" I have two questions for those making fun of the Pallies, those who think Pallies are fine the way they are, those that think Pallies are OP, etc: "Why do you think there are so few people playing Paladins? Why are *you* not playing a Paladin?" I am seriously interested. If you are a Warrior and think Pallies are great, why do you play Warrior and not Paladin? Why SK instead of Paladin? I am not going to judge, I am not going to complain about your reasoning, I am not going to tell you that you are wrong (although I admit that others might). I am just interested in the reasoning. I know why *I* am playing Paladin. I know why I gave up on a max level almost max AA raid geared Druid that completed NoS Raids with all achievements and has been raiding since ToV to start over on a Paladin. And I am frankly surprised there aren't more Paladins around. If you are a Paladin on AB and want to raid, let me know. From my understanding my guild would not mind having a few more of us.
It's nice to have a few Paladins around, especially on TLP because Clerics aren't the most fun to play. (Also dat 2.0+Robe drip, mmmm) You want a couple max level / AA / geared Warriors for real big bad stuff, and to loot WAR only drops. The other 90-95% of them should probably mainchange. SK or pet class for basically everyone else and all other scenarios where a tank is needed because, well if you don't know, go play one. If you don't need a tank or you can use a merc, or you're boxing, then Bard.
