Can we fix the lag instead of just "addressing" it?

I did not make that argument. I rather neutrally support a testing and data-gathering regime for identifying problems and targeting fixes. Perhaps, a shift from more limited QA to public stress tests (mass pets and procs at an appointed instance).

The moderator has already cleaned up the thread. I would like to avoid a derail induced by a disagreement over assumptions and semantics. I have made my point. You can reply to others who have made that claim (remove pets).

You seem to be focusing on removing a mechanic that would nerf multiple classes with the claim that it should be tested without providing any reasoning about how that would be better for a lag fix then the massive amount of procs that are firing off every second.

Oh darn, I was too slow today.

But on topic.

My suggestion some time ago, vis a vis Swarm Pets; First remove the graphic part, change from loading 3D models to a single nimbus graphic representing all the swarm pets in one very compact (low bandwidth) visual.

If that doesn't have a notable effect; Second consolidate each discrete 'pet' calculation (attacks, defenses, etc.) into one single number and one discrete battle sequence of calculations.

Don't remove things, minimize their footprint.

A final point about data-gathering and analysis: Publishing the data will help with buy-in and lay out the case for any "much needed changes to address lag."

It is obvious that many magicians may be offended IF swarm pets are touched (especially without compensatory power increases).

It is also obvious that many bards, rogues, and rangers may be offended IF procs are touched.

The last two weeks of raiding have been good on xegony (i think we dropped one dz in umbral). As a class who just got proc buff, I vote the swarm pet route =p

The last patch optimized achievement handling. I don't know if that was a huge performance bottleneck, or a low-hanging fruit that wouldn't affect core gameplay...or a bit of both...

There are probably a lot af factors that affect lag, and not all of them are gameplay related. If they avoid messing with the gameplay related factors, then they won't have to retune the entire game. Which probably affect the devs decisions about which lag optimizations to make, quite a lot.

That is probably the reason why we don't hear about all the optimizations they make each patch, as they usually only mention gameplay related changes in the patchnotes.

If swarms are actually a problem then maybe change them from being X number of independent mobs to being 1 swarm of X mobs. Since its A Swarm there would be only 1 path calculation. If its supposed to represent 10 mobs then make it x10 strength. If the mob smacks it demote it to x9 strength and etc.

Looking at this weeks raids my NEC AA swarm pets clicked on cooldown was 0.2% of my dps. As far sa im concerned they can be removed from the game.

Quick fix for procs would be to lower proc rate and boost the dmg.

Before it was pet push, now it swarm pets. We all know pet push was never the issue as mobs got pushed around long after pet push got removed. So new "mage hunt", what is the next issue. Mod rods on raid create lag?

Big if true.

Wind damage exists when there aren't hurricanes, therefore hurricanes are no problem. You have some weird logic there.

There are different kinds of push. They removed player/pet melee push but some spells have a push/pull effect. They did not remove mob on player push.

As for pet push, it was extreme. As in swarm pets would push mobs all the way across a room in seconds. I particularly remember Barxt, the Uqua boss, getting pushed through the door to his room. The door locks on engage so he summoned and killed the raid one by one. I'm not sure if you're serious, but anyone who played before they fixed it likely knows how extreme pet push (and player for that matter) used to be.

That also has nothing to do with lag.

The next assumption could be 1-hand weapon calculations and "bard song spam."

I don't mind "fixing" the root cause if folks can gather and show us the data.

"We've calculated that swarm pets (or procs or whatever) are attributable to an - on average - 80% increase in latency in 90% of instances with a 95% confidence interval. Here is the raw data and our methodology for peer review..."

I am not by nature conspiratorially inclined, but your choice of the word “I” implies a level of involvement beyond that of the typical ForumQuester. Do you work for DPG? If not, then I am puzzled as to your choice of verbiage here.

P.S. Or...did you forget the quotation marks?

The context of my statement and choice of verbiage is in opposition to knee-jerk, emotive, and assumptive nerfs. "I" - as a player - do not want my characters subjected to unnecessary changes based on incorrect assumptions. I did not choose "we" since I don't speak for anyone else even though "we" would be a clever tacit political maneuver ("We" to mean speaking on behalf of many players so by invoking the bandwagon fallacy you must accept my statement as indisputably true or correct.)

My core concern: "Procs (or swarm pets) were nerfed. We still have raid lag."

The notion people are owed proof for reasons the developers themselves have given us is downright absurd.

And does it seriously need to be explained reducing the load not instantly solving all problems isn't evidence the change did nothing?

Where did they pinpoint swarm pets or procs? I'm not on Discord.

Since we both play bards, how would you feel if someone (anyone from a brand new player to a tired dev) said "bard song spam" is the cause of raid lag? The assertion (rumor) takes hold and circulates vigorously on the EQ forums and Discord.

Presenting data is just a good practice. At the very least, it will assuage critics on the forums and lay out the case for any change.

And no one has said they should remove procs and bard spam, just that things should be reviewed and consolidated as needed to reduce the number of calculations done while limiting impact on DPS. Your suggestions seem to be for removing things instead of reviewing and reducing.

You keep quoting the wrong person.

I am going back to one of your older posts where you suggest making raids that don't allow pets which would be a major nerf to several classes that are built around pet DPS so I think I am talking to the right person.

I did not suggest removing pets at all. Other posters have asserted more sweeping arguments.

I suggested an anti-pet mechanic in a single raid. You have the convenience of designing a special raid and testing to not only to detect the lag problem but try a new mechanic/dynamic (paradigm).

You could even have a lore-based explanation for the anti-pet mechanic: "Mayong Mistmoore's magic annihilates summoned creatures."