My problem with melee dps being so dominant.

I literally gave a short example. Read.

So TLPers don't play past a certain era now? That sounds like an excuse to microscope classes within 5% of the entire game's history. That fact alone is enough to call this argument nonsense.

Again, a reminder you are on the TLP forum, the era the OP referred to was "Luclin Onwards" and the conversation by most posters was with that in mind, you choosing to argue from the standpoint of a live player is out of context in this debate, your example is out of context with this debate & you have refused to directly refute Atabishi's comments on the grounds it would take you too much typing to do so.

I consider you a better debater than that & like most of your posts but this is well below your usual standard.

Ahh I see your problem, you have trouble reading and responding correctly.

The OP said, and I quote "So my options for most of the early TLP experience..." So why should anyone in here be talking about live which is years from now when the OP specifically stated he is asking a question regarding EARLY expansions and the current expansion Luclin forward. I'm sure your information regarding classes in Claws of Veeshan will do a LOT of help to this person.

I said, and I quote "Utility might not be a specific classes PRIMARY role..."
You then replied saying, and I quote "Because I can tell you right now, literally nobody considers necros as a utility class.." insinuating that I said the primary role of a necro is utility, which I never said. I stated that Necro's have a ton of utility and are not ONLY a pure dps class.

So all you really had to do was just read correctly, and like I already predicted...you wouldn't make yourself look like the idiot while trying to call someone else one.

Luclin onwards is pretty general soooo I think my arguments can fall into scope.

Let's see..the "mind flay" line has been pretty useless for the last 6-8 years? Snares? The list of classes that have a snare seems to be endless. Fear? Useless for many years. Relectant Benevolence was nerfed into the ground 5+ years ago and I never bothered checking if they ever made it useful again after I stopped playing my necro during TBM. FD? OK, I guess that's still used to prevent yourself from dying, but necros pulling has long been gone. Also, with potions literally any class can FD. Most, if not all, classes have a form of dropping aggro and have for years so a necro with FD really isn't special. Hell, pulling in general has long been gone considering I just gather up a half dozen mobs and let the group and myself go to town on them. Corpse summoning? Hello, DoN, thank you for making that utility useless since 2005.

So at the end of the day, what powerful "utility" does a necro really have? They are outclassed by multiple classes such as bards, enchanters, and druids for utility in raid situations. Necros are essentially a pure dps train.

Monks haven't been a parse topper in many years. Do they compete? Sure, but top parses have been pretty consistent for awhile now. It may be alittle different on TLP in the 70-80 range with monks now due to boosts in 2HB, but 95+ monks were never really considered the top dps class.

I disagree.

So 2014ish to 2012ish ?

Veil of Alaris L90 to The Darkened Sea L105

Yeah, really quite close to Shadows of Luclin L60, very clearly relevant

2016? so Empires of Kunark L105 to Ring of Scale L110

Yeah, really relevant again, only 17 years away from Luclin

On live.

If you can't "argue within context" just stop, you are only making yourself look even more out of touch.

So you're the kind of guy that when someone says "What do i need to do going forward?" You give them an answer 30 years away.
Nothing you posted is in any way relevant to the current or near expansions.

One sec, let me go find some classic posts to respond to where people are asking "why this class cant have this" and tell them how they're dumb you get it in 10 years !

That may have been a challenge too tempting to refuse.

It was borderline niche and unneeded for years prior to that. Something doesn't immediately become useless. That line of abilities was rare to use even in SoD which was 2008. Again, if we are using 2 expansions to whine about stuff or to argue in the defense of something, that's a ridiculous arguement because you have >50% of expansions making the ability unneeded. Just stop dude.

It was quite possibly the necros most valuable utility for quite some time and it wasn't given until UF. That pretty much highlights the useful utility of a necro in the level 80/85 eras as well. Again, necro utility usefulness dies off pretty hard around 2006/2007. You're talking about 14 years of virtually unnecessary or outclassed utility vs 7-8 years of it. The 60-75 level eras vs 80-115 eras. Which do you think should hold more weight in making an argument for or against necro utility? I do believe majority wins.

I'm not the one limiting the context. You and select few people are. The OP simply stated Luclin and on. That seems to encompass everything since luclin. What you're arguing is just semantics now. Necros haven't had seriously good utility for at least 14 of the 27 expansions released. To use their utility as a reason why they shouldn't outdps other classes is just pure nonsense.

That's what I thought. Instead of valid counter arguments, you devolved to memes. Come back when you got a valid statement.

I normally agree with you on most things, but this I certainly will not. Using necro utility which isn't usefull for >50% of everquest's history as a good justification for why they shouldn't top parses on raids in an expansion 20 years old is pure, unadulterated stupidity.

Well you are though lol. You are limiting the context to the expansions where your argument even makes sense. If you weren't limiting the context, you would have replied something like completely agreeing up until a certain expansion and then that certain utility becomes less relevant etc. Instead you stated that everything I said was completely wrong (which it obviously isn't) and then jumped ahead to the expansions where it fits your criteria, completely skipping over all the months where what I said is 100% correct.

You need to stop lol. I dunno where Skuz is getting this "you're normally good at debating" but you really suck at this lol.

Ya'll responding a lot to someone who doesn't play on TLPs in a discussion about TLPs in the 65-70 expansions.

Mmmmm maybe you should play more than 10% of the game before commenting?

If you did have a clue, you'd realize that what I'm saying is that necro utility is trash for much longer periods of time after luclin so using it as a reason why they shouldn't top parses doesn't make any sense considering that when their utility dries up, they had long periods of time where they weren't topping parses. What about those eras? Isn't the whole point of your argument that their utility is THE reason why they don't top parses in Luclin? Why are we you ignoring those eras in which they have trash utility and still don't top the parses? Probably because you dont even know those eras.

I genuinely think you are off your game today.

The meme was completely justified.

Normally you can relate to the topic well, in this thread you have gone so far off the reservation you are starting to almost be a parody of yourself with the lack of self-awareness on show.

I am familiar with your stance, that the whole game is a valid frame of reference when players are arguing for changes that they think need to be made, this is one occasion that this stance does not work in but rather than adapt your stance you have doubled-down on an argument that misses the point of the discussion at hand needing the context of earlier expansions, your point of view is so lost as to be entirely meaningless within the scope of this debate.

Take a step back & rethink your approach if you seek to make a relevant point, and have a pleasant day.

Now THIS is quality ForumQuesting. Hats off to all participants!

I'll make it more simple:

Necros on raids for a greater period of time are pure dps classes. They aren't used on raids for their supposed utility so bringing it up as a reason to not be able to top a parse just doesn't lead to a strong foundation for an argument. If we want to be so generic with our argument, necros are the premier DOT-based DPS class. They are part of a 3-way pantheon of pure dps types: melee, DD, DoT. So why shouldn't they compete with the other two primary archetypes? Their only real super useful utility on raids is their mind wracks and mana pumps, which quickly deteriorate in usefulness as early as TSS. Are we to just ignore the utility that pure melee or pure DD classes bring to the table? You cannot make an argument for necros having utility so they shouldn't top the parse while completely ignoring the utility the other classes have whom are out parsing necros.

While that seems like a ways a way, that's only another 18ish months of playing on the current TLPs and after that necros don't bring anything to the table besides their ability to sustain dps over long periods of time. That's their niche. Long term dps. Not utility, not adps, but long term dps. They are simply outgunned on burst raid fights so they are already limited in how good they are on raids depending on the type of fight. To justify limiting their dps potential on raids because of their limited time utility ain't going to happen.

I also think the OP complaining about casters being outmatched by melee on raids during these eras to be completely short-sighted.

Firstly, they are failing to recognize any era down the road where casters do more than fine competing in parses (which is a majority of the expansions at this point in the game). In a TLP where content is accelerated, the time playing a caster in their "doom and gloom" eras doesn't last that long. It just takes a bit of patience and OP will be happy playing a caster in eras where resist checks die off.

Secondly, if OP wants to limit their argument to around the Luclin-POP era, they are failing to recognize that most casters dominate the group/solo scene. A necro boxing a healer is 100x more powerful than a rogue boxing a healer. A necro by themselves is 1000x more efficient than a rogue by themselves. An example? Hello, dire charm. All melee are heavily reliant on groups while multiple casters can just go off by themselves and be fairly efficient. You don't see any melee groups AE killing in the deep, do you? I surely haven't.

Pikachu is just arguing with himself at this point. Every new point he makes, contradicts his last point. Even this newest one is a contradiction of this stance.

Hey guys, what if I told you that Necros are really good dps AND utility from 1-65, have a real bad time in the 70 range, then they get dot consolidation 70+ and are good dps again?

I'd say it's relevant information! Unlike most of the ego jousting in this thread!

Wizards are generally considered one of the most boring classes in EQ and they top parses in Luclin. Necros do quite well now also (although they suck in PoP.)

You seem to forget that melee have to deal with mob AC, positioning, AEs, etc.