So this in a bit on an inquiry on my part, so I can have a better understanding on what are or are not reasonable expectations for assessing recruit performance. A little back ground. I am in what I consider a good raiding guild. I typically dole out raid assignments to the tanks. Usually I assign warriors to bosses at the beginning of an expansion, using extra warriors/SK's to primarily tank adds, and use paladins as a utility heal/cure tank so typically I assign them to mobs last when given the option (nobody else can do what a paladin can do so I want to make sure they can do it - IE cures on mearatas). As the expansion progresses and we get better geared I'll start assigning all tanks to the various jobs so everyone has a chance to tank bosses etc by the end of the expansion. We recently added a few paladin recruits for the first time in several years. I am in the process of evaluating their performance and working with them and their class leader on any noted deficiencies. The problem I am experiencing, is that I will frequently (though not always) out Hate/agro the recruits with just autoattack. I do not toggle off bold attacks. I am also using my agro 1hders as a warrior. Is it unreasonable for me to expect a paladin to out Hate/agro my autoattack on a mob that may live for several minutes? Should I expect/require myself and other tanks to turn off bold attacks/use DPS set ups to accommodate paladin hate? What I know is based on my own experiences and those people in my guild so I accept those things as truths but I want to be fair an understanding for all parties.
No and no. Check their spells casts and cast counts. Even if they are casting on cool downs, it's very possible for a paladin to have a low aggro spell set memorized. Paladins have some -hate abilities (so they can break off and heal/cure of course!) to watch out for in a tanking spell set: Marr's Salvation, Inquisitor's Judgement, and Remonstrate all reduce hate. Remember all paladins must now buff block the recently nerfed Marr's Salvation (lol). Check their 1H weapon for AC aug and maybe switch them to a Rune aug. I use lifetap augs in my current Devout Rune weapon and shield, and a Rune aug in my Wurmslayer. If they have an AC aug in their Wurmslayer then they cannot get passive AE aggro from those swings. ps: a paladin should have Bold Attacks enabled 100% of the time as well.
It sounds to me like they're not used to the role, and so underusing the tools they have. It's trivially exposed in your log file, just check out the spells/abilities tab once you load it in GamParse: Valiant Diversion 1/3+ of spellbar spells cast, up to 9/minute but 6 or 7/minute is more typical other 2/3 of spells Dissident & Protectives & Protests & Preservation & Crushes/Requiems not Remonstrates, until/unless they have a large agro lead tryhardgreat paladins probably work in some self rescues against bosses that spike damage them,with Propitiation/Expiation Force of Disruption 6/minute Divine Call every 45s Heroic Leap every 90s Beacon of the Righteous every 90s Hallowed Lodestar every 90s a Projection of Piety somewhere in there probably an Unending Affirmation too The Paladin Life is that the tankin'est agro'est survivaly'est spell set only has some overlap with their utility spell set or their supporty spell set or their dps spell set or their max healing-others spell set. If you assign a paladin MT and don't see him sit down to swap 3/4 spell gems? Probably they're either not paying attention or don't know what's up with that part of paladining.
I would start by finding out their spell line ups. From there I would gamparse their cast count and get a general feel of who is casting what and then stack rank them on aggro vs other casts. Do you have a paladin in guild who is tenured that you trust to use as a baseline? If not I'm sure someone on the forums would be willing to show a cast count from the same event when tanking the same mob. It is wholly possible they are overhealing due to trying to show out by not dying and as a result not trusting the priest team. Or they could be under the gear threshold and compensating by self healing too much. In addition to this there is a vast number of paladins who spam awkward spells because they've got it in their mind that they are doing the right thing when in fact they are being counter productive. For myself I don't have max ranks of burst of power yet and so my dps drops to 1/2 when not using a 2her. There are tips and tricks they can use to increase their aggro throughput by using utility items for aggro. As an example divine call has an aggro component but the lurch effect doesn't work on red cons so its free aggro without having to manage the lurch. Heroic leap just had aggro loaded to it as well recently etc. hope that helps
Yeah, it's not always a mistake from them. DW 2 warrior weapons can generate a lot of aggro. War only weapons are the best option for DPS 1hander for warriors but their aggro proc can generate lot of aggro, especially if you are unlucky with a string of procs. It's possible to climb fast on aggro meter on paladins, even when these paladins are using their max aggro generation set (Crush 1, Crush 2, FoD, Valiant, Refute for Honor). But I saw it also climb on SK and other warrior, even if not in the same ballpark. With ToV, they can use their AE hate aggro to generate good hate with the faster recast timer on a mob that lives through several minutes, so it climb less than in TBL, but still it can climb enough. When I'm on DPS duty on adds / boss tanked by other tanks (whatever their class) and I don't have any tanking assignement in the event, I go with a 2 Hander. I use DW when i'm ST on a boss mob for example.
So to make sure I am understanding things correctly. About 1/3 of casts would be : Valiant Diversion Then 2/3 would be Crush of Restless Ice, and Crush of the Grotto, with a smattering of Preservation of the Grotto, Protective Devotion/Consecration, and Protest for Honor and Dissident Force. Since it appears that Force of Disruption has a 10s reuse (to get 6 per minute), I should have roughly an equal number of those to Valiant Diversion (0.5s cast plus 6s recast). The other abilities seem to have a pull, leap or AE associated with it so may be more for situational usage.
We all tank differently, I dont use crushes currently as I hold agro just fine with stuns/undead nukes. Here is a standard Restless Assulat raid. You will see that some are received xxx, and so forth but you can see basically what I spam... Ofearl - 757 --- Antipathetic Strike - 20 --- Banestrike - 71 --- Beacon of the Righteous XII - 1 --- Blessing of Life XXVI - 51 --- Blessing of Unity - 1 --- Brilliant Exculpation Rk. II - 46 --- Circle of Power IV - 1 --- Crippling Snare - 38 --- Dissident Roar Strike 6 - 60 --- Divine Protector's Unity IX - 1 --- Doctrine of Abolishment Rk. II - 15 --- Fervent Audacity Rk. II - 3 --- Force of Disruption XIX - 86 --- Force of the Grotto Rk. II - 63 --- Gift of Life IX - 1 --- Hallowed Lodestar X - 2 --- Inquisitor's Judgment Strike XXIX - 30 --- Inquisitor's Judgment XXIX - 1 --- Jann's Light - 34 --- Lightning Breath - 1 --- Marr's Gift IV - 1 --- Projection of Piety VI - 1 --- Protest for Honor Rk. II - 3 --- Pureforge Disc - 1 --- Received Auspice of the Hunter - 3 --- Received DI - 2 --- Received Paragon - 1 --- Received QM/Marr's/Veturika's - 1 --- Received Shaman Epic - 1 --- Remembrance Rk. III - 33 --- Requiem Rk. II - 1 --- Sincere Force Rk. II - 37 --- Sincere Fury Strike II - 35 --- Sincere Light Rk. II - 105 --- Slain - 1 --- Spider's Bite Poison Strike XI - 6 --- Spire of Chivalry XII - 2 --- Thunder of Karana III - 1 --- Valorous Rage XII - 1 --- Vampiric Aura - 1 --- Vanquish the Fallen IV - 3
pulls don't work on bosses. paladin leap is specialfancy, it leaves them in front of their target. So both are plain +agro buttons for this purpose. AEs are technically situational? but if ~4 AEs every 2 minutes is enough to beat all the other tanks in your raid at agroing the mobs that are their job? got other probs than soft paladin agro. Call/Beacon/Lode/Leap should all be usable on nearly every boss. Maybe not Avatar with adds spawning under his feet.
nothing to cure at Restless Assault. why would he splash? I mean, if we're critiquing then Holyforge is missing, but lack of splashes doesn't stick out to me
I believe that a paladin can have better aggro by replacing "Crush 2" (timer 6) with e.g. Sincere Force. Rank 3 is only 49467 hate/minute because of the long recast. It's outdated and if not for some spell damage, obsolete. Even Lesson (also Timer 6) has more +hate these days. By way of comparison, see 2 other spells you didn't list (all Rk 3): - Crush of Restless Ice : 49467 h/m (apx) - Lesson of Propitiation : 50312 h/m (apx) - Sincere Force : 69006 h/m - Fervent Audacity : 72710 h/m (uses a precious debuff slot)
Yeah they add in their line up the Sincere Force, and in previous expansion it was Merciful Force etc, so the 2 crush + FoD + Protest + Force + Valiant.
Okay, but I mean that Crush of Restless Ice is a poor choice. It's main value these days is crit nuke eye candy.
That would be pretty embarrassing to lose aggro to someone auto attacking. I’d be interested to see their spell line ups. It could be they’re used to be splash bots and not real tanks
I wanted to thank everyone for the feedback. The extra direction has been helpful for me and is helping me be more proficient in knowing what to look for ability and skill wise.
I don't manage to obtain the same numbers per minute, apart the 6 Sincere Force Crush is 24 sec recast, so you can cast 3 of them in 1 minute, first cast, then 24 sec later second, and 24 sec later the third one, so 3 x 19 787 = 59 361 hate Lesson is same deal, you can cast 3 of them, so 3 x 20 125 = 60 375 hate Fervent, 10 ticks of 7830 hate, so 78 300 hate Anyhow it's not changing the order of which one does more hate, but here is what I wanted to add. The difference between Lesson and Crush is 1 000 hate, for a spell with a good push back ? Is it wanted in raid ? Also, over the course of 1 min, Fervent will have created more hate. But the aggro lead from start will be higher with Crush (+ 12 k). Usually if you don't want to be overrun by melee DPS aggro you need to start right away with a good aggro lead right from start, rather than a linear average aggro over time over the course of the duration. Protest also fills nicely the job of aggro over time too ? I'm not saying that these 2 other options you list are not to be considered, just my point of view on it.
Where do you get 3 from? 60 / 24 = 2.5 casts per minute. Hence my lower number of "49467 apx". It's really worse then that either way. It's 2 casts in 60s (39574) and 3 in 72s (59361). Some raids have stun banes so yes more often of late then in previous years. Generally not though. Sure. Even in that case, a paladin might have to wait as much as 24 seconds in order to cast Crush 6 to help get that early lead. It just doesn't work out that well. If you're a great paladin then your spells are on cool down and Crush 6 is not ready to help you tag. If you're holding back Timer 6 for a new mob to engage then it's not helping you otherwise. See the dilemma of using Timer 6 at all? If Timer 6 is not ready then you are loosing not only the 19K hate but also the opportunity cost of not having e.g Fervent to cast. One could cast Fervent 2x for 15660 (+25952 duration hate) while waiting on Timer 6 (worst case). In that example it's 41612 vs 0 in a 24 second period.
If crush is the first cast you are doing to tag the mob, it's 3 crush cast in 1 min. 1st sec, 26th sec, 51st sec (i count 25 sec to take into account the 0,5 sec cast time) Unless you cast it at start, it will be back up for the next mob. Hence how I obtained 3 crush. Which spell Timer 6 is critical to be used in raid as a paladin so that it's on cooldown nearly whole time ?
Good point about starting edge case. That applies to all spells we're talking about though. So it's still "behind the curve". I guess you don't have Timer 6 spells in a multibind mash button? Again you're idling a spell gem for 56s of every 60 seconds. It's 6% utilization of a spell gem for questionable "bang", plus lost OPT cost of not using a different spell.
