Necro Dots - Please Reconsider

17 pages long so far:

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/nec-sk-dot-revamps.246446/page-17

I mention it because the dot revamp is going to deal with the live server debuff slot issue first and foremost. Done correctly is should help necromancers down the line in progression raiding.

The main fear coming out of the massive thread is that it will break necros solo, not improve the grouping situation and/or completely change the class to the point that it is a new style entirely.

ayeee cupe, u playin delve on friday? hit me up, long time no see

I'm obviously not a necro main, but why would a revamp break them solo? Having to load multiple spell gem sets to unload their dots seems like an awfully boring way of playing the game. Consolidate their dots, and free up space for something else.

I'm not saying necromancers instantly drop from doing well to doing garbage dps. The problem *starts* in Luclin and goes downhill continuously and constantly since then.

People always post things like this and it is frustrating because you see only the very start of the trend and post things like "well things don't look completely bad in Luclin, so nevermind your firsthand experience that things continue getting steadily worse"

I have always been in a guild with 2 or more (very competitive with each-other) necromancers, and we all see similar results, so you can also please refrain from the pointless "get good" advice as well. I was also doing "ok" (down from "great" in velious) in that period.

just because those necros are competitive with each other, does not mean they are good, more than likely they are both equally bad. your data is flawed

Hah.

And we also all forgot how to play the class well right around Luclin/PoP too?

So i'm sure there's plenty of non-bad necromancers out there who can vouch that all four aforementioned necromancers are secretly bad at the game despite spending considerable time theorycrafting and min-maxing (and at least one of them having played the class literally since the game came out).

Please, find me one of these mythical people who can do well in TBS era single-target parses as a necro.

The sense I get is that players are basically afraid that it will get screwed up so that a soloing necro in older content will be weaker in DPS output.[or start out better and then get reduced by subsequent patches]

There's little unanswered things like if the superdot consolidates 3 fire dots a necro would usually cast, but the necro tosses one and get a resist so they debuff before wasting the mana of the 2nd two dots (and the recast of the first) how is efficiency being balanced in the new set up where you burn way more mana on the resist? Some things there are probably easy answers as well like lower the mana cost of the debuff line, and reduce the cast time on clickies like Nightshade scented staff.

They could also do it a really overpowered way and give necros the superdots really early in levels vs. when they would traditionally get the 3 dots to layer on. That could be kind of fun actually...

Done right the revamp could be a boon to the class including solo play.

Getting Bane of Nife resisted as a shaman is just heartbreaking. Then when it happens three times in a row on a debuffed mob it's enraging

These two things shouldn't even be in the same conversation. Totally different issues. One applies only to the early expansion TLP's (kunark and before), and the other is really only relevant on live.

Long post incomming, please take the time to read, I hope you find it enlightening.

OK, I have to chime in here. I played the TOP necro on my server back in the day on live and yes, Yaw, your info was correct, BACK THEN. Now on the TLP's the situation is completely different. You may have been top 3-4 on parses simply because your guild had 2 monks and 1 rogue. Now try being in a guild with 5 monks and 3 rogues not to mention the wizzies(who now get their Crit AA in luclin, unlike necros, who have to wait till GoD).

Currently, the necromancer cannot CONSISTENTLY parse competetively with other DPS classes from Luclin forward. The reason this is the case is because there are more high DPS melee doing damage, meaning the fights are much shorter, and the less damage your necro gets to do.

From luclin on, the problem only gets worse as melee DPS ramps up via new AA's, new Discs and the buff that Melee received a few years back (that buff was lessened recently, but this really only brought them more in line with wizards and to some extend, mages.).

Once GoD rolls in, Necros FINALLY get their crit AA. BUT! Now we have people leaving other classes to make Berserkers (who simply do more DPS than a necro). So now guilds have added even more high DPS classes into the mix, further shortening the fights and further eliminating the possibility of a necro "outlasting" their competition with their sustained DPS. The fight ends with a necro sitting 10th, if they are lucky and the wizards and mages get resists. Usually with say 4 Monks, 3 Berserkers, 2 Rogues, 2 Bards, 1 Ranger and 2 Wizzies, the necro (who is SUPPOSED to be built for raid DPS) is sitting behind them all.

This was not the case originally. There was no melee buff. Back in the day, the fights were twice as long as they are now, so those 1 minute burn discs for melee would run out and eventually allow the necro's ramp-up damage(as they stack more dots) to overtake the the others

Fast forward to live and you have basically the same lineup of classes above the Necro minus the rangers, maybe. Wizzies move into the number 1 slot with Rogues, Zerkers and monks mixing it up right behind. Bards drop off a bit and are sitting about even with necros. OK, well at least they are competing right? WRONG. The necro, in order the reach number 10 (if your lucky) on the raid parse has to use 3 spell bars worth of dots and have ADPS buffs on them constantly. So we have to stack 20+ dots and manage a crazy rotation along with clickies from everything just to sniff the rears of the other raid DPS classes.

What does the necro get for this effort? Do they get crazy group DPS? NO! The necro has the worst DPS of any class save healers and CC classes. Do we get CC that works on current content? NO. Do we get amazing heals and buffs that the group cannot live without? NO. Wait wait! We get to solo! Solo what then? Oh, yeah, We get to kill non-named XP mobs, at a slower rate than groups by far. Any group worth their salt would take any other DPS class over a necro. Hell, they would even take a second tank because the tank does more DPS and serves as a safety net on bad pulls. The necro has become the "last resort" DPS class in the group situation. "Better than a merc, I guess," is what they say.

The DoT revamp would help alleviate this situation. It would help make the necro be relevant again. It would reduce the ramp-up time for their damage. It remove the need to battle-mem 3 spell sets for one fight, thereby allowing them to nuke and lifetap to up their DPS a bit. It would increase the DPS they would do in groups (a bit). Sure there are necros that say they thoroughly enjoy their class and yes, it is a very rewarding and fun class to play because of the complexity of the class. Think bard in caster form. But, one cannot deny that there are players leaving the class in DROVES, because in roughly 80% of game play, they have become irrelevant, and that truly is saddening.

Again sorry for the long post. I hope this better explains why we necros feel so passionately about the revamp being completed.

wake up devs, we're still waiting on a response from the other 17 page post on this issue

I get the impression alot of people (presumably including the devs) are scared to apply the same methadology to necro dots that they did to the other DoT classes.

Is it possible there is a different, simpler approach? What if instead of merging DoTs, DoT duration was shortened a little (and the total damage was compressed into the new shorter duration)

The exact numbers could be tweaked, but shorter duration DoTs would need to be refreshed more often, making it not desirable to swap in additional spells anymore and also improving the debuff limit situation.

This would also move necromancers into a more reasonable DPS position in group and raid content if done right.

Is there something that I am missing here? It seems too easy for someone not to have already thought of it.

I'm just tired of having this albatross around my Nec. I don't expect the devs to be at our Nec and call, but after 2 years i think it's worth having someone Nec into this messed up situation. Unfortunately, it looks like it will be another year to Nec the halls before anything changes. And that makes me score highly on the Nec Depression Inventory

Would be splendid if they had the necro revamp in place before their big 20th Anniversary TLP with instancing and fast XP.

This thread being here is hilarious. It's like watching a bunch of kids trying to talk about adult issues because they heard adults talking about it. But everything they say is out of context and doesn't make any sense. Funny stuff.

An your comment Oak is like having a 10 year old complaining about what the teenagers are doing. Newsflash Oakenblade, your input really isn't relevant or welcome.

As much as it makes me a little sad to say this, why don't they start by fixing live necros DoT situation in the upcoming live expansion?

That's a single point in time that they can focus on making sure they balance properly in effort vs reward versus the other classes. They can remove the degenerate pre-melody-bard-like manual swapping of spell sets at level 115.

Then, when they have time, they can take that strategy the figured out and apply it to previous expansions to fix the TLP servers too.

At the absolute least it would give us some hope to look forward to as we progress through the eras.