balance.. where art thou?

This post is not about the thread, but about the dangers of "paraphrasing" and why I spoke up when you did it. The key to paraphrasing is that you convey the meaning of the original speaker. I do not feel you did that.

I said this:

"I don't think it's so bad that SKs and other tanks are rewarded for all their extra work and time."

and you said this:

"NameAlreadyInUse specifically wants to be "rewarded" for getting 10k extra AA, which I've always thought was a pretty poor argument."

I said "rewarded for their extra work and time", you said ""rewarded" for getting", which completely removes the extra work and time element. And, as you pointed out, you said I "specifically want" something, which is not only inaccurate, it is pure speculation and even goes against what I said. Thinking something isn't "so bad" is a lot different than "specifically wanting" something.

Anyhow, as I said - feel free to quote me all day long. But I will correct you when you try to put words in my mouth.

15+ years of raiding as an SK and I can probably count with my fingers the number of raids where SKs were "extremely key" to overall raid success. We've never been a particular key or useful raid class, so you might want to put that pipe down, yo.

(The flip side is that we've also been a rather strong grouping class, soooo, meh, none of this is new other than being subjected to nerf calls from non-warriors, for a change. Hi, everyone else!)

Didnt realize i said something about removing monks from the game? why do you think classes go so long without being looked at? you're damn straight im going to bring issues to these forums i fought tooth and nail for zerks when i mained mine for 8 years and they finally got what they needed now imagine if every person playing a class for so long did this? omg fixes galore! but when its one or two people who suck up there pride and say hey not right that stays wrong but you may be right maybe im just sick of the game in general constantly fighting to keep the good in the game (remember the "thunderfoot fix?" yeah lets not fight to get it working correctly see how long it took them to even look into it? It's your mind set that allows issues to stay as long as they do. Call me a baby for bringing issues to the forums but the next time you're kicking on a parse because omg fixes! dont even for a second think you had anything to do with it if you're not willing to fight for the class you love to play. maybe i am alone in this fight but id rather be fighting alone then not at all



Edit.... i love the term "elite" being thrown around and i FULLY offer to jump on test and parse with other monks who claim im just bad

Please do tell me what i offer to groups that dont want single pulls outside of dps that any dps class can do better with the same skill set?

People always do this. Their class becomes the class of the month, and then they make up any reason they can as to why this makes sense. "My class is harder to play than yours" (even when it's not), "My class can't do some other thing" (even though in the case of berserkers you're doing more than twice the dps of other classes who's role is well over 50% dps.. probably more like 80%-90% dps.. I mean really what % of a rogue is not dps in your mind? -that's how far behind berserkers they should be). All the people that could kill swarms of mobs at any point from earth shaker to beam pulls to ripo pulls all had some reason why it makes sense that THEY can do it and others cannot. Fact: every reason given was total garbage. No class should be able to do something that causes a strong imbalance in the game.

Try this exercise if you have some excuse as to why things should be the way they are, or shouldn't. Use the same method you used before while attempting to arrive at the opposite conclusion. If you can do this pretty easily, you're probably not on the right track...

<3 Sheex! Err Neo

dev philosophy on Zerkers

Might be true if you don't count kiting as key to beating an event. Although pallys could do it but that doesn't mean they did it better or you did it worse.

The only real niche SKs fill is Aggro control, wether it be kiting stuff away from raid, offtanking, or just aggro locking so other CC can do their job safely.

That is pretty much all. Thankfully, knights have been brought up so that we can semi-fill a warrior spot if the need arises, but its not all that often.

Splos is secretly a Wizard. True story.

Kiting huge swarms of fast ish spawning adds, maybe - like Solteris2, for example. But those scenarios are pretty rare. Single kiting was our thing historically because there wasn't anything better for us to do, and while slightly better at it then (and lots better now with instant cast spells), it very very rarely was "key" to winning or losing events, and in that fringe case it was, if we died a bunch of other classes could jump in and do the "job" passably well. So meh.

Xanathol makes me laugh.

You don't get it. It is not possible for a Monk to sustain what an SK can sustain within the same group.
A raid Monk with a Bard will sustain mayybbee 100k over the course of hours. A raid SK can do 120k easy with a Bard.

Sure a Monk could sustain around 150k with perfect raid support but an SK in that spot will do 220k+.

And I agree, Monks are still pretty great in the group game due to utility. My one Monk friend molo'd chardok partisans for me in like 3-4 hours. They just don't offer much to a raid team ATM.

And noone has said that Zerkers should not top DPS, they should. The issue is they are nearly DOUBLING the best non-zerkers if played correctly. They should be ahead by like 25% not 100%.

Wow Minato I really feel for you. It's pretty clear you're just in a bad way right now regarding where monks stand and are too frustrated to be rational. That's okay. We have all been there before I'm sure and will likely be again. Let me try to help as best I can since there really isn't much I can do if you somehow found a way to interpret everything I said as a personal attack on you specifically.

First of all -- please show me where I stated that you, Minato -- yes Minato, said monks should be removed from the game. Lemme keep you from wasting your time trying to find that statement because you won't. It doesn't exist. I never made such a statement nor would I. It's the adolescent nimrods who seem to only be capable of living in the immediate moment as to who has it the best at any given time that make such asinine comments. If you can't get the point I won't waste your time or mine any further in that regard. Here's some advice that you sure as heck don't have to take -- don't make a habit of lashing out at someone who actually has sympathy for your perspective and will even defend the passion you exhibit for your class.

Next, there are many reasons why classes can go a long time without being retuned or adjusted in some way. You can scream all you want to the high heavens that life sucks and make changes or else and it won't guarantee jack. It may help. It may not. Making a blanket statement that anyone who doesn't post on these forums to *promote the change* is useless and worthless is pathetic. Who the heck are you to determine what is the proper way to fight for the monk class and how do you have any way of knowing whether someone is or isn't doing something in any number of other ways? You seem to me like someone who is above that and should be better than that. Take a step back maybe? I don't know. You don't know me anymore than I know you so I won't stoop to the level of bad-mouthing or insulting a fellow monk main even though you seem to think that is what I did /boggle. Here's the thing about the forums and posting about issues related to monks. There is a specific forum for that. It's the class forum and I know you know about it because you've made posts there that seem to be constructive and informed.

Why would I or any other person who is fully invested in the monk class pick this worthless space of a thread filled with trolling and moronic statements to *make our stand*?? So, please pardon me for calling you on your holier than thou crap about how you're all alone in the fight and I am just a jerkoff because I dared to say to all the idiots crapping on our class (don't you find it the least bit ironic that my post did some of the very things you're complaining about me and others not doing) to get bent or gain perspective. Save it for the class forums where you can talk with fellow monks who care as much as you do and are far better informed about our abilities and functionality in all respects. If you want to keep firing away here it's your call but I'm not interested in talking to large groups of people who think we are worthless and I'm even less interested in helping someone who tells me that my mindset is the source of all that ails the class I care about every bit as much as you do.

I'm also not quite sure that the best way to cultivate goodwill and a willingness to engage in constructive dialogue here or anywhere else would be to tell a fellow monk main that hey you don't deserve anything good that happens to the class and won't have had anything to do with it because you aren't a character named Minato. If you go read some of the posts in the class forum that knowledgeable monks (of which you seem to be one) have exchanged I'm pretty sure you'll see lots of commentary about how frustrating the thunderfoot deal is and has been and a whole heck of a lot of other things. Again, just a suggestion that you are under no obligation to heed, but maybe you should read more of someone's posting history and look in the appropriate forum to see what fellow monks have been saying and doing (which is the very thing you accuse me and they of not doing fyi) before hitting crane stance on me.

As for the term elite -- again I'm calling you out for at this point just looking to be argumentative. Why? You know what is meant by it or you should. It's a generically accepted term used in the class forum among monks to describe those who have either been playing monk mains for many years and know the class like the back of their hands or have belonged or belong to one of the top raiding guilds server-wide. I don't doubt that you fit into the category yourself so why default to being hostile when there isn't a reason to be? Why are you so quick to assume the negative and get defensive? Maybe I can understand it if you're arguing with a troll but with a fellow monk? Sorry that you think your cartoon male or femalehood is being questioned and that somehow my post was claiming you were a bad monk and better show some parses to prove otherwise. I'd love for you to show me that statement too. Please enlighten me as to where it is I said Minato is a bad monk.

In closing I'll take the time to paste all of the many examples of me doing the exact opposite of what you seem to say I was criticizing if for no other reason to hopefully give you another chance to read it and possibly realize you're way off base. Maybe it will work and maybe it won't. Regardless, I truly hope you can find a way to come to terms with the game in a way that allows you to have fun. Fight as hard as you want and think is merited for the monk class and you won't get anything but support from me. How you are capable of thinking otherwise I can only guess is the result of words being read on a screen without any emotives to give context or what not. Perhaps it's the comments intermixed with the portions I'm pasting that you find offensive and decided to take way way way too personally.

Best wishes to you and hopefully you will find a healthy perspective to get you through even if it means for whatever reason you've decided I'm the worst person ever and only made a post to be mean to Minato. Let's see here: just how many times did I encourage fighting for your class (in our case monks) and oh wow will you really look at this last one where I (no really I couldn't possibly have) actually stated clearly that I understood why Minato had good reason to be frustrated (yep I used the word Minato).

**I have no doubt that many of those said monks are not pleased about many things related to the class, and you can count me among them
**Those of you who think monks should be higher dps and have been playing one for a long time and feel let down or think all your hard work into the class is being ripped off -- I feel you. That I can understand and not have a problem with
**So, it's perfectly okay to feel upset or angry about things related to your preferred class and it only makes sense that you do your best to fight for what you think is right regarding it
** if you're pissed about how your main class is doing voice that and fight for it
**Maybe as a monk main I am very frustrated just as Minato understandably seems to be that things aren't optimal in many respects -- It's only a matter of time before things are recalibrated. If you don't have the time or the patience to wait for however long that period of time is then I get it. I feel for you and hope you can still find a way to enjoy the game
** I am not happy with where my monk is at all. I'm pissed about a lot of stuff

Apparently none of that registered or counted or mattered. Either that or I wasn't typing in English.

i played a monk last expansion with raid arms/legs adbreviura and the rest group gear with dichotomic 1 no rk3s no sod progression etc and was sustaining 80-85k with whipes and afks included in group content with bard and shaman(far from raid support) in decay so i'm pretty confident you're selling the class short
i'm not gonna sit here and say monks aren't slightly behind the melee dps curve because they definitely are as they should be you have no back arc no root/blind no downside to your burn other than you have an entire disc dedicated to your opener which may cost you all of 2-3 seconds on a burn if you get unlucky with server lag oh man the horror(at least you got upgraded main and secondary discs)

as far as your 25% nonsense goes what's there even to compare to? most players on this game see numbers from different classes from players that actually put in the time to parse out burn orders and abilities(rather than read a forum post and run with it) and without knowing what their class is actually capable of immediately take to the forum and start bawling their eyes out
the average tier berserker currently burns for 400-800k with a small few actually being able to burn for 1m+(you know the ones that instead of following a forum post actually spend hours parsing to figure out what to use and when) which is well within what the average tier raiding dps of the other classes are doing monk included
don't try to make it sound like every berserker is running around dropping bombs or every monk just can't compete on the parse just because a small percentage are great and the rest are average or below there has always been a huge dps gap between good and bad players

fact of the matter is every expansion there's a "top tier dps class" it's not a new occurrence don't cry about it just wait your turn or quit the game
you guys remind me of back in hot/voa when the guild i was raiding in had rogues that were using kinesthetics and then wondering why they got stomped

You do understand Zerkers where only closely contested two exspansions ago in TDS. Since then and even then they have been top DPS. So it's not like every exspansion there is a new top DPS. it's pretty much only Berzerkers. As a wizard I am getting out parsed in a raid setting at alarming rates. I can hold my own in a very good guild but when you take a class that can nearly out burn you on a single target and multiply that amount of damage by how ever many things can be fit in a hit box there is no compatition. I'm not going to reroll my class because their is no one to pay attention to these issues at a developmental level. I do not want to see Bezerkers or any other class nerfed I want to see balance with only veriation based on skill, achivment, and gear. If Bezerkers are pushing nearly a million DPS then single target burn classes should be able to break 600-900k on a short burn.

What is everyone's favorite vegetable?

In danish, we would say something like: "Go for the ball, not the player". Not sure how that translates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Sorry just that first statement was/seemed very directed at me as i did say other monks (not all) are not posting here and with the rest being in the same paragraph i felt the rest was toward me as well seeing other paragraphs on different topics.

You are also right it was a long post that i skimmed over and may have missed some other points and for that i apologize i did jump the gun and you are probably right im lashing out because i dealt with this same type of thing on my zerk 3-4 years ago before finally main changing and i hate to see it happening again on my new main i love and just pray it doesnt take years before things are changed. Im also aware of the lack of devs working on classes but sometimes its beyond irritating to feel/know the devs working on classes either have never played the class before or seem to not even play the game and refuse to take player feedback without instantly tossing it out the window.

But as you said ill stick my future issues with the monk class in the proper forums. It seems i got carried away here a little bit due to the title of the thread and as much feedback as i like i dont think other classes can give proper feedback from this thread without simply saying "monks suck"