Rogues in pseudo-classic on TLP servers.

What your auto attack is better? Flying kick better? err?

No your freaking gear is better and the man was lamenting the grouping experience and acquiring said gear, news flash math works the same for everyone. As far as the chest thumping goes dial it back bucky your guys are no different than anyone else just better gear.

You've killed queen bee post upgrade?

Do you have any proof of your guild killing queen bee post buff without pet walling? Because I'd love to see it.

Also, the beautiful ignorance of you saying that being incapable of tanking the bee is due to bad tanks, and not a lack of healers.

Lol only 5-6 mages. Half your raid force is mages and you've never killed anything with traditional strats. You sure as heck haven't beaten Hand or Noble cycle without mages, because they're currently untankable. Monks parse high on dps, because their fists are extremely overpowered and better than any weapon until PoP. Rogues rarely beat wizards/mages because their weapon tables and gear options suck.

For us normal folk, reality is that the rogue is not the OP character right now. I don't think anyone who knows this game ever thought they would be early on. There are just too many limitations, namely weapons, that keep them from being the beasts of DPS.

As a normal non-raid geared (but pretty well equiped) rogue, I notice that in my groups. Monks easily out DPS me, but I expected that. Pets our insanely strong too, and we all expected that as well. Anyone who expected anything different was digging too deep into the other servers and expecting it to be the same.

I'm still having a blast, and I do a decent amount of damage considering the content that we are fighting in. I'm strong enough to not be a liability to groups, and occasionally I tank if needed (how tough can a dead frog or kobold be, really?)

Bid your time, rogues. Our day comes soon enough. Soon we'll be opening up locked doors in Sebilis. Eventually monk fists start evening out in comparison to the weapons we get. We're not going to be OP for a long time. Don't expect DBG to rework rogue code or put in new weapons for us in original Everquest.

As a rogue with Fear piercer I approve your message. I've parsed my damage and it's not terribly far below a mage pet, but it also depends on the encounter and how much haste I have. They still take the lead.

Overall I'm happy with my rogue. Getting groups hasn't been an issue once I found people and proved I'm not worthless by linking parses. I parsed every group and my rogue wasn't doing horrible DPS compared to the other classes. Granted, I've had a Serpent's Tooth since level 40. Over the course of 200 elite goblins one night, with no group member swat outs, I was able to beat the mage and wizard. I also parsed 5 different Alizewasaur fights, and pulled between 47-54 DPS each encounter. The casters can't even land spells on this mob reliably, so I was on top by far, doing at least 40% of total group damage.

While rogues have plenty of downfalls in classic, I'm happy with my decision to make rogue my main. Not to mention that he is fully planar geared (aside from Sky off-pieces) due to the fact that NO ONE else plays a rogue.

If I were to redo the class selection on TLP, I'd pick rogue again.

The other consideration is you bring about 3x the amount of people the encounter is designed for. I don't mean to slight your guild, it's fine that you do it, but your attitude towards other guilds being bad is flawed because:

a) You do pet wall. I've seen you do it outside of sky even.

b) You have had over 200 people show up to some raids. How many did you have at Queen Bee last night, and did you get it down for example?

Anyway, again, AD is good people, but your attitude towards other guilds definitely needs some adjustment.

Wow this thread degraded fast. While I'd love to post some things to which ever AD rogue this is, kappa I'm guessing, none of this has anything to do with rogues. If you want to start a new AD v Faceless or AD can tank everything thread pls do I'll gladly post stuff there.

Please keep this thread constructive so maybe we can get the class tweaked to be where it should be.

Kraznor is a enchanter in AD

Ya someone told me it was kappa but I apologized to kappa. Kraznor please keep your trolling out of this constructive thread.

So, Kraznor has to be trolling us.

Faceless tanked queen bee from start to finish just to see if we could. It was probably not worth it, except it's a game so play how you want. We did it, and we were the first (TL hasn't yet as far as I know, but I don't pay that close attention to ragefire). Also, as far as I know, AD has not killed Queen Bee post buff. This is as one of the top healers in faceless talking to their healers, comparing notes as it were. We got it on our first pull, first time, if QB didn't deathtouch, it would've been a flawless kill.

The buffed sky content is just stupid, but I'd say Queen Bee is the hardest mob on these servers that can still be tanked. In terms of single target DPS output, QB does almost as much damage as General Reparm from Plane of Fire. Think about tanking that at level 50. Then think about doing it with rez effects on because the fight lasts forever and the mob deathtouches. I won't tell you how to do it, but it's far far beyond anything I'd call "traditional." In 15 years of playing a cleric on raids, I have never seen such a difficult mob to tank. There are two mobs in sky that are even harder than Queen Bee, and AD hasn't even engaged them (wiped several times on first noble, including a last ditch effort to engage when we moved in, where they wiped again without managing to also wipe us).

The naggy fight you are referencing...Faceless tanks were tanking Naggy during that fight, and faceless healers were keeping those tanks up. Yall did some shenanigans, and from what our parses show once over a certain number engage the kill is assigned virtually at random (we did 75% of the damage to a vox and lost the kill also, fear does strange things to the aggro list/mob history and other things). It was a good fight though, and we really enjoy the competition. The contested mobs are the most fun for us, thanks for showing up. Ahh, and as someone who gets to med up 700 mana to rez those dead melee, I can tell you we only had two casualties during that fight, where we pulled, tanked, and healed, vs your 6? where all you did was dps? Troll.

Kythik is a badass rogue. The parses where he's getting 13 dps are against mobs with a 40% straight up reduction to all damage taken, so you can't look at your solb parses and compare. I think he might be one or two slots shy of best in slot in every slot, but you know, sky is fickle on the drops. I would be pretty shocked if any AD rogues disagreed with Kythik's assessment. I'm sure the chanter that spends his time dead at the feet of the DT mob is an expert on how these fights actually go though.

There is a significant balance issue there he was trying to draw some attention to.

That not that many play rogues is absolutely proof of the problem.

So long story short, if you are seriously arguing that there is no issue with rogue utility and/or dps, then you are an idiot.

If you are seriously arguing that these buffed mobs haven't skewed the game entirely towards mage armies, than you are likewise an idiot.

So I conclude troll, because nobody is that dense. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I feel your pain kythik, If the new poisons go in rogues do top DPS in Time, and make a serious contribution at 60. Turning on the revamped poisons would virtually fix all the melee/vs mage dps issues actually, and is a reasonable solution. It does give warriors reliable aggro way waaaay out of era, but after watching aggro bounce around for weeks I'm OK with that. They could also only turn on the rogue only poisons, but that's gonna get you killed bro.

You know what, at the risk of getting in trouble for revealing strats, I'm going to go ahead and tell you what it takes to tank Queen Bee, and why AD couldn't do it.

Naw, temptation avoided. I don't want to rob you of the satisfaction of figuring it out yourself.

I will say that when that fight was over I was pretty satisfied. Shocked and appalled at the devs for creating the content, but it was fun.

If it was a tabletop RPG, you'd stand up in the middle of it and punch the game master in the throat.

All we can figure is that the devs are trying to make it so that casual people can't kill the mobs, so they get back to being casual and stop trying to raid. It's barely even slowing us down, and it isn't particularly challenging (it's more dumb than anything).

But anyone that thinks they're going to roll up some tanks/healers/dps and go after these targets is kidding themselves.

18-24 pet classes, minimum. All these changes have absolutely solidified the mage army as the only viable strat for the top content on the server.

You can classically attempt CT/Inny and about ~70% of sky, and both dragons and yael. But if you don't bring the DPS hard your healers will run oom and you will fail. And the only 72 person raid that is going to have enough DPS on these raids is going to be at least 30% pet classes.

And that is a problem.

For the mobs beyond those listed above, to avoid the fight taking an absurd amount of time, you're looking at 35-40 pet classes being preferred.

And that is an order of magnitude worse problem.

Not for Faceless, and probably not for AD and other top guilds either, but for the rest of you, I honestly have no idea how you'll do this content even when the level cap goes up to 60.

Kythik claimed this

Whereas for some reason comments about group dps are somehow looked on as irrelevant

The only way things get fixed with rebalancing even with current levels & gear is providing proof with extensive parsing max buffed, AAed, best in slot.

DBG have some flexibility in the way their debuffs work if they can differentiate between pet melee dps and melee dps

You must be thinking about General DPS output under disc.

This is the manifesto of a sane and well balanced individual.

I know that the group game is the bulk of the player base. Thus I tried to present the information I listed not just for raid but also the impact on the group game.

As to parses I will gladly give what I have to any dev that wants it. Granted I'd have to scrub the logs and note based on memory which fights I had a bard or not, esp when it comes to dragon kills when it comes to raid parses.

Though I prolly should spam this thread with screen caps of gamparse parses for raids and what not.

@kraznor The TLP's are not classic, hence the psuedo-classic in the topic. There is no reason what so ever for DBG to not make all classes viable at this point before they were on live. In fact had monks not had updated code Rogue would be the top melee dps class. From a biz aspect for future TLP's it makes sense for DBG to address these issues. Again though with updated pet and monk code as well as out of era spells THIS IS NOT CLASSIC. You can keep saying classic this and classic that but why compare apples to engines.


As to everything else you said and anyone else making this thread degrade from the purpose. Please keep this about the rogue class, maybe ranger too I guess.

As I stated earlier anyone who wants to discuss AD v Faceless race or AD's claims of tanking every mob in game post buff, please make a thread for that purpose.

You have traditionally tanked Overseer of Air? If so, do you have a log of it? Or, better yet, a video? The math seems to suggest that it is impossible, simply because he should have the ability to 1 round a fully geared tank, even with all buffs and perfect CH + rune rotations.

I may be mistaken but AD has not had the ability to kill the Noble cycle post buff....

Ah, didn't read the whole thread, so didn't realize he was AD. Just saw that statement and thought maybe someone had managed it.

I believe everything is technically tankable except Overseer. Hand of Veeshan would be rather difficult as well, but maybe possible...and the Queen Bee CAN be tanked, but you need a tight CH rotation, as well as other healers to heal the clerics in the rotation, and the raid, to counteract the AOE.