Rogues in pseudo-classic on TLP servers.

The issues with Rogue dps compared to monk and really the other top teir dps comes from two factors.

First would be the available weapons in game. At lv50 it takes one of 3 weapons to be comparable to monk fist damage with the lv50 damage bonus. These weapons are Crystaline Spear 13/30 from Vox, Serpents Tooth 13/27 from Yael, and the Vexthorn 9/19 from PoHate mini is close but not quite the 21/26 human monks get. One weapon in game for rogues is effectively better; Thornstinger 12/19 from PoSky. This limits the availability to only those in raid guilds or willing to spend 6-10 krono for the first two non no-drop piercers.

This really locks rogues out currently from competing dps wise in sub 50 xp groups again unless they are willing to buy the spear or tooth for 6-10 krono. The trash drop piercers from hate and fear being only 10dps still really fall short and you can't get them until lv46 as you know.

The second issue is the disparity in skill caps between the rogue and monk class. Current skill caps for the two classes are;
Rogue skill caps:

offense: 210
dual wield: 210
Weapons: 250
Backstab: 200
Double atk: 225
Triple atk: 100

Monk skill caps:

offense: 240
dual wield: 252
h2h: 270
flying kick: 250
tiger claw: 255
double atk: 240
triple: 100

I'm a little rusty on my eq mechanics but I would believe this would make up for the ~10% accuracy difference between the two classes. Monks also get 2 specials vs the rogues 1 but the dmg cap for backstab is higher if you are willing to swap in the efreeti war spear 15/40 only for backstab. Granted this is very "try hard" esk without the bandolier.

I am under the impression as is most of the community that kunark's lvl 60 cap and subsequent skill cap increases will "fix" the rogue class. Which would barely be acceptable with a 3 month timer for the xpac release. Seeing as it's 6months on LJ it definitely isn't. As it stands now it is pretty rough getting a group lvling as a rogue. Most people know that rogues don't even do mage/necro pet dps until they have a 10dmg or better weapon. While others including the officers of my guild thinking that rogues never can. I've been able to change their minds for the most part but a skilled monk will obviously out dps me just due to the numbers.

Rogues only offer dps with zero utility to groups or raids. Rangers from what I have seen have the dps issue even worse than rogues but they offer other utility than just dps. Both classes are suffering at the raid level. While rogues suffer at the group level even more so.

I'm not looking for rogue to become the next FOTM class but I would love for us to be able to do the one job we have in the game w/o waiting for some magical fix via one expansion or the other.

These servers are not true classic so please don't use that argument as to why rogue dps has to suffer.

Even so, you can't dps with mage pets tanking as a rogue, and current content decimates real tanks. So monks aren't dps'ing either right now on a lot of the bosses.

Rangers are in a similar boat anyway. There is no way a ranger is tanking current raid content, save for trash which anyone could. Then there's wizards, who are fully resisted on tons of mobs in sky.

im not sure what they could do outside of adding some new weapons, or changing current ones. which i really doubt they will do.

Well you don't exactly have to tank ALL content with pet walls. Obviously the luclin era content difficulty is with current gear levels and should be fixed as well. Though as I stated the rogue and ranger dps issue isn't just for raids and also affects grouping. Now we all know that the raid content players are a minority of the server pops so I wanted to show that it also affects those that are more...casual.

I didn't buy my weapons, neither with plat nor kronos.
But i have to agree. Beaten by any semi skilled monk in numbers, even with top piercers equipped, is kinda disappointing. And to do a CR on rare occasions is not that much utility.
Efreeti war spear is not available easily cuz its piece of a bard quest.
And Thornstinger needs 2 very rare drops from beez and eov.
So realistic are only 13/27 from Yael and 13/30 from Vox.

Maybe they should just introduce some thrown weapons and arrows with obscene dps so we can dps through pet walls

Seriously though, not many of these bosses are tanked normally at the moment. Our guild was extremely against pet walling, and is now pet walling almost everything.

increase skill caps, add backstab dmg to current weapons , increase the already in game bonus dmg you gain while lvling. They have several options available I would think.

I agree some rogue only high dmg throwing weapons with the already in deadly strike might be nice with current pet walling on targets like the noble cycle and bees would be a cool. It would be better if they made the targets not hit like mobs from luclin though!

No actual parses... no mention of poisons

Does anyone even play rogs?

Why does this matter? heh.

On a seriouse note, this is not news, this was known from server inception, that is why I leveled a mage first, and used the mage to twink other toons, so they wouldnt be completely worthless. At least, as a ranger, I can cast SoW pn the puller. I never invite anything but pet casters as dps in my groups... there is no reason to take a rog ever... hence no one playing them unless they can start with top gear.

I dont really have any parses saved to really show what I've seen, but in general. (group geared)

Mage pet 40dps
Monk 20dps
Ranger (or presumably, Rogs) 13dps.
Shaman dogs 20dps.

Is what I've been seeing.

I can post parses but that wouldn't offer much more insight on the matter than what is already known.

Posions are worthless atm as they are 1 charge with 5-10sec recast while being resisted nearly 100% of the time. I do agree though that I missed adding that info to the post thank you for reminding me

You actually answered your question of "Why does this matter". thank you.

that parse is about correct until lvl 46 with the trash piercers from fear/hate. Then a rogue can be about 1-2 dps below a mage pet iirc. Unfortunately I don't have many parses saved from lvling but I can provide them for raids.

Why I included "group geared" as even though planar trash is groupable, it is in fact raid gear.

And the first 2 lines were (and i figured would be seen as by everyone) sarcasm.

Worst case can just combine a whole load of exp mobs in gamparse
Just did that for Croak for 450 fights in SolB on bugs & bats - currently 46SK but started there a couple of levels before.
That gave me 12DPS slashing with BABS, FBSS and ENC haste over 2 levels

Limiting it to just the last 30 fight I achieved 14 DPS slashing... there is a little riposte in the but not a lot.

You might argue that that is against blue con group mobs, and that is a reasonable argument, but Croak is a Dark Elf SK, and has very little STR gear and I never buff STR or atk, and only use very mild SK defuffs for AC (not using any from chanter)

I suspect at 50, using an argent defender even without better haste I would be looking at 17-18 DPS slashing. With better other gear to up my really wimpy STR (only 88), using atk buffs etc I would get past 20 DPS slashing

There is something amazingly wrong with your 13dps

And to satisfy my own curiosity, I would LOVE to see a good raid parse if you could replace names with classes, and post it in ACT format instead of the archaic Gamparse format... You know, like in a readable fashion

My issue is after toying with it a bit I quickly squashed all "other" spam in my filters and basically only parse my own toons at this point. And even then, only rarely.

@ Croak;

I dont parse often, but did parse my SK and Ranger as they leveled through the high 40s.

combining fights generally gave me circa 13 dps on the ranger, and a tad bit more on the SK (like 1 or 2 dps) but i really havent been parsing since because I dont group with them any longer, and honestly dont care about raid dps... because most of the mobs I cant even hit with any regularity... so in sky I may be down to as low as 5dps with full raid buffs and even better gear.

Edit add, on individual fights my sk would spike incredibly high, if he got lucky on hits. I had individual mob parses in the high 40s on him. <3 2 handed dps.

Has the ACT plugin been updated past alpha status? I will DL it again and post it up from ACT though. I know which fights I was able to get a bard group and when not so I can give some decent parse examples.

I meant more as in hitting enter after each toon if you used 'copy/paste'. If you wanted to just post screens of the gamparse window, that's fine... if you could still let us know what classes they are. The actual program is quite readable, it's just the in game paste that really hurts my brain.

Examples;

Gamparse (bad):

/GU A lava guardian in 21s, 5k @241sdps --- Wildybus + pets 1k@66sdps (86dps in 16s) --- Hekubah 1k@59sdps (104dps in 12s) --- Noysyrump + pets 1k@56sdps (70dps in 17s) --- Punchis 1k@38sdps (47dps in 17s) --- Zebarer 0k@22sdps (24dps in 19s) --- Alexsine 0k@0sdps (0dps in 10s) --- Brutus 0k@0sdps (0dps in 4s)


ACT (good):

(01:15) The Windstalker Rumbler: 833 Droll-slash-1531
Whisk D 202 H 0
Droll D 183 H 0
Quixa D 135 H 0
Minim D 125 H 0
Frell D 106 H 10
Psych D 81 H 0
Yiago D 0 H 46

You have to go to obscene lengths to tank a lot of the post-buff current content. Maybe TL can field a perfect composition 24/7, but the rest of us cannot reliably tank things like Queen Bee or even Keeper of Souls. Hope you enjoy the new rotation though.

Not many playing any of the melee classes atm. Monks have many of the same issues as rogs as rng as anyone slinging a weapon. We expected some of this but damn our prefered classes just aint cutting it unless you have a mag six-pack to gear up.
Its fairly broken, go with it, the caster current is too strong, or wait.
I spent the weekend playing a Monk on FV, so glad I did as it turned out.

On live servers, berzerkers have been pretty terrible for non-burn situations for years and years. Everyone knows that if you invite a berserker into your group without ADPS support it won't even do half the sustained dps of a caster.

When I am pet tanking on live I invite rogues or berzerkers to group to put me on autofollow and leech exp using ranged attacks.

Just offering to give you a bit of perspective, I wouldn't hold out much hope for a TLP fix

I didn't listen to anyone and leveled a rogue to 50. It really is as bad as everyone says, I was in a hole group that actually had two groups and our cleric actually bailed on the group because he couldn't stop complaining about how bad the groups dps was.

To make a long story short I liked my rogues name soo much and it's the name I've used in MMO's since I first played EQ back in 1999 so I actually deleted my rogue just so I could reroll to a better dps class with the same name.

Now just trying to decide between Wizard, Mage or Necro. Any advise from people on how these 3 classes will look in Kunark or Velious?