Content cannot be defined by the top 10%

Yeah, but they'd still hit like trucks. That's the key thing that I'm worried about with them recreating Kunark dungeons or using the old ones, that some of those mobs were intended to be dealt with while you're dealing with another, and the devs make sure to make everything immune to root these days.

Personally I think that Dev comment was just putting a positive spin on cranking up the mob HP to slow down the game some.

Probably one of the truths that have been told. Necro's in Cotf had a chance to throw maybe 2 swifts on a mob before it died, having them tick twice or 3 times tops in group content, with any decent group. I remember CoTF mobs blowing up in like 10-20 seconds while current.

TDS mobs still take under a minute or two tops to kill, 11 mill hps isn't anything these days.

And I do think that they should design content specifically for the hard core raiders, similar to PoWar. They make super easy quests and content for the casuals, why not tend to the raiders as well? If casuals choose not to adventure there, they have their own easier zones/quests to roll through.

Probably because they've already said "raiders" get the raids; groupers get the group content (which raiders also get).

TDS really isn't that hard at all to tell you the truth, yes they have alot of health, yes they hit like trucks. It's not a molo type expac, but now you could probably get away with it up to t3 for certain classes. I box an SK/ranger, and damn near 2boxed a good portion of the expac, set aside Missions that require a group. But when it first came out I managed to 3man the Degmar mission with a friend, it also took mad long but I got it done regardless. It can be done by anyone who puts in the time and motivation to get it done. If you are one of those players who want something easier are getting derailed from what original EQ started, it was hard back then, now it's easy mode. Go get yourself some good group gear, get the best augs you can get and keep trying til you prevail. There are lots of good augs from RoF/CotF that are very easy to get now. EQ was the game where you actually had to spend time to get good stuff, it's not WoW where you can damn near beat the game in 1 week. Stop trying to change that. If my SK can tank raid nameds in PoW in group gear at lvl 100, anything is possible!

Once again, huh? "They said" is not an argument, especially ones as dubious as the ones I've seen you throw out in this thread.

cry cry cry orienn you suck shut up i need more "hard" stuff cause TDS had me snooze mode

I guess we are going to take over another thread ayy Smokey?

dude this expansion made me CRY, all 4 toons done with progression within 2 weeks, and 7 weeks of raiding to sum up the next YEAR of raids, /slit wrist plz plz save me...oh wait PROGRESSION SERVER!!!! damn it! nope that not workin eather!

Saying because you raid, group content should be all about casuals, is a pretty hilarious argument. Everyone who groups has the option to raid, they just don't utilize that content. So because of their choices of not raiding, the raiders get screwed out of group content that actually challenges us.

This is due to the avg raiders skill vs the avg grouper. Raiders want something that's going to entertain them with a challenge. Casual groupers want something that they can roll over with some friends and get a good piece of lewt. There should be a medium in the group game as there is in the raid game. If you think about it, not all raids are equal in difficulty.

Generally that's why they make different tiers, t1 being the easiest and t3 being the hardest ( in TDS ). You don't even need to be a raider to enjoy t3 zones, just someone with decent knowledge of the classes they are playing.

To say EQ caters to the top 10%, or raiders.. because of, lets say TDS T3 zones, is incredibly small minded. If you all played your characters to even 80% of their potential you'd be more than fine in any tier.

To say, since raiders get raids ( all 7 ) group content should cater purely to the casual players is just ignorant, not to mention horrible marketing.

L2play if you think TDS is to hard.

LOL...granted I was on a dead server where the guild I was in at the time were the only people to even attempt to do it, let alone help each other through it. Just saying it can be done if you put your mind to it, for those crying for less difficult stuff, me personally I like the challenges.

Reread - the distinction the devs have made in the past isn't 'raiders' versus 'casuals'; it's raiders versus groupers. You can have hard core and casuals in each category.

None of the raiders, myself included, were happy about 7 raids; we all feel it should have been a lot more.

I'm tired of being folks 'google fu' like I am often in threads like these. So sorry if I'm not going to pull out the numerous links from the Developers to confirm what I'm saying they have said in the past. Now, that said ... Brell only knows what we'll get with these 'campaigns'. I for one am not afraid to say I'm very nervous.

First off, where are you getting the 10%? Do you have any data that supports this? So you consider the "majority" in this case to be 90% vs 50%+?

If you're using the proper definition of majority - I would guess (I don't have stats) that the majority CAN and does beat the content they face, given some time, retries, and skill development (which is what makes a game fun right?)

Secondly, why should group content be beatable by your definition of the "majority"? If the 90% can beat all of the group content, where is the challenge? That probably means that if the content is that easy, it will be beaten quickly and mindlessly by so many players, that people will lose interest, get bored, and unsubscribe.

I'm not saying that a whole expansion should be so hard that it frustrates people, but I really don't think that this is the case. For those who don't raid at all, why shouldn't there be an end group game that is only for the most determined and skilled?

Couple things ..

1) - Group content that I can not get 7 of my toons threw remaxed lvls, remaxed aa's .. in a weeks time is what I would consider challanging.

2) - Plane of war is NOT .. as "challanging" as most think. If you think "challanging" simply consists of not being able to pet tank it .. I got news for you .. THATS .. not what makes Plane of war challanging.

3) - Content that has a "variable" challange difficulty level is what has happened in the past, an SHOULD happen again with the added "So hard your going to wanna slap yo momma" Difficulty lvl pls .. (With achievements !! ZOMG)

Just some random thoughts on this entire issue..

In the past when they made things no one could beat, everyone cried and called it broken.

Plane of Time was definitely broken when FoH got flagged for it.

And as amazing as Gates was, it was kinda broken considering they forgot to give players an extra five levels. Tunat wasn't beaten until after Omens launched.

I might challenge the comment about challenge adverse a little. I think a lot of the players just want to do things in the most efficient manner which is the best exp for the least effort. That is not challenge adverse that is efficient. Many players do the more challenging content just to get a achievement done, for progression etc then do the content that gets them exp most efficiently. Not everyone does this but a lot do.

And of course my original post is about not designing additional content for the top 10% when we currently are hard pressed to get enough content period.

LOL explain the hypocrisy? I started the topic and I picked a figure of 10%. There is not enough group content to tune it to the top 10%. This is about ADDITIONAL content (I assume you read my original post). This all started when someone in another thread said PoW difficulty levels should be put in every expansion. I think occasionally some things in the current expansion releases have been overtuned a bit but an overall happy with them. Where is the hypocrisy?

Yes Daybreak's return on investment improves if more people buy the expansion (if you have read my posts you would have seen me state this.. a few times I think). Let me tell you about the casual side of things.... I run the largest casual guild on my server and have done so for I guess close to 16 years now... I hear who is buying and not buying expansions from this demographic. The fun things a lot of these people want to do is get through group progression. Replacing some of the content with get in future releases with PoW level group content would hurt expansion sales from these people.

You guys have a funny opinion of casual players. very few are "barely capable" and most fall in the middle and are reasonably good players. The hubris I see here sometimes astounds me.

Please explain what the "something fun to do" is that these players you call "barely capable" should be doing?

I am saying that changing the way things have been done for years and creating more content designed towards the top 10% of players would not be good for the game. Leave it the way it is... maybe get rid of the uber hp mobs in TDS it just gets boring killing them.



P.S. when I say PoW level of difficulty I mean when it came out not after a level increase.

I might challenge all of your comments.

I think that there are large numbers of players who go beyond just casual. A truly casual player is going to be as casual about progressing as they are in pursuing progress. You don't need level 105 to hang out, kill a few mobs, chat with your friends etc. You can log in and slowly kill mobs in Orc1 as the urge to do so occurs and reluctantly move on to alligators when Orcs no longer give you experience - assuming experience means anything to you.

Nope these players want to get great outcomes for next to no challenge.

Were they not challenge adverse (after all you have to care a little to take on content that might kill you - that entails a little caring) they'd head for max level content when it opened - you can't get best outcome from previous expansions. Previous expansions don't have the best gear.

Were they not challenge adverse they wouldn't wait for a casual raid leader to beat TDS entry level content with his not using IsCheater software 6 member box team and offer him help. In the largest casual guild on their server they'd form their own groups and offer their raid leader help so he wouldn't have to rely on boxed toons.

They'd have their better than group content PoWar drops - you can take that content on with more than one group making it fairly easy. Some of the best rewards in the game for them. They'd have trophies, power supplies, AA's (after all Gribble was open to them as long as it was for me and Gribble was dead easy with great rewards). 10+ months to do content that took me 2 months would be plenty.

Lemme tell you about casuals. /ooc in PoK Doing 14th, 13th anniversary public raid send /tells. would result in 25 people. Which it what it resulted in when a raid guild did open raids year after year. Our coat tails/their non-participation.

You can not design a worthwhile game focused on players who do not play. People who can not be moved from CoTF or RoF unless you nerf the heck out of that old content.

So, you design group content so that non-raiders who are actually interested in playing the game can beat it. After all if you spend 18 months doing DH HA's you are hardly going to be motivated to buy TDS which you can't be bothered to do.

It's not "10%" as if the raid community is running rings around non-raiders. It's more like 20% with half of all raiders making an effort AND a fair number of non-raiders also running rings players who are casual about the effort but VERY not casual about wanting the rewards.

The sad part is that there are some awesome rewards well in reach of casuals (by that I mean unable to devote huge blocks of time and not meaning lazy/easy mode seeking) but many do not have these items despite time and difficulty not being the factors that prevent them from having these items.

What should these "barely capable" players do? Become capable. It's a character improvement game. Play it like one. The less advanced have too much content. It's the 20% that play the game that need more.

Every single time I was going to do any quest, I do a general chat message invite listing the quest and my group and inviting people to join, even people that cannot help me like undergeared tanks or melee dps when I'm pet tanking. So don't tell me to "just group". Sometimes I do, when people are there. Usually no one answer, I wait 15 min and I start

So yea, basically I had a decision to make. Since I was mostly duo'ing my way through TDS, I could either keep plodding along through trillions and trillions of mob hp, or grab my bard alt, buy TDS and maybe get another wiz merc and 3box. Just to remotely kill stuff in a time frame that I was used to from my first days playing EQ. Which is just what Daybreak wants, I can feel the TDS business model pressuring me, and I don't like the feeling

And keep in mind yea I was just running a 2box, but these toons are maxed out as good as they can possibly be sans stuff like trophies and raid gear, and one is the sudtained dps king and the other is great dps as well. I will never find EQ fun when I am blowing muram robe clicky and third spire every single pull just because fights go that long