Seriously, don't make a rogue.

If you're a rogue diehard who has made a rogue on the past TLPs and you know what you're getting into, go for it.

If you have not played rogue in classic yet. Do not do it.

Yeah, seconded. Anecdotally Rogue has been one of the the least played classes on every TLP, and there is a reason for this.

Why? I love rogues

It breaks my heart when I see newbie rogues struggling on the TLPs. It just sucks for them and they quit.

Daybreak should rework poisons to make them viable, but for now, tell your friends to just say no to rogues.

Meh on previous TLP's once you get your epic and some raid gear you are competitive.

Rogues arent 100% garbage, but a lot of people avoid them like the plague for a few reasons.

1. good Daggers in classic are VERY hard to come by
2. you are super reliant on groups, and when just about any dps is more effective in classic they will skip over you. (even though dps is so high across the board it doesnt matter).
3. You are the most gear dependant class in the game up there with warriors.

however

An epic rogue above level 55 is very solid dps. Mine could easily break 1000 damage total double backstabs(no disc)
AA's make a huge difference which isnt until luclin


It is hard, but not impossible like people say, The "dont roll a rogue logic" is semi flawed though... might as well say dont roll any dps but monks since at 50/60(epic) they get weapons that they wont replace until late luclin/mid PoP.

No clue what newbie server you played on, but there were plenty of classic rogues on Coirnav, more than Rangers and Paladins combined.

Lol rogues top parses.

I contend that statement. I knew of more rogues in my guild than paladins.

Or make a rogue and be the only class that doesnt have to spend dkp for gear, because you the only rogue in guild

If you make a rogue, use up all your dkp, and try REALLY REALLY hard to BiS, you could beat a mage pet!

Goals.

(speaking on classic)

Everyone here saying "lolololololol rogues top pares #sogoodsogood" are really just glazing over what exactly it takes to get to that point. While rogues are not super gear dependant they MUST have the BEST weapons possible to just be competitive with other classes. Monks litteraly spawn in with BiS weps and do more damage than rogues for 90% of their life. Only at the end game do rogues finally start to pull ahead Slightly of other meele DPS. To get to end game is much harder for a rogue than other classes as well due to how weak you are compared to other classes. So if you want to play a rogue don't roll one as your first toon. roll a necro, druid, shaman and farm gear and twink out your rogue. It will be way more fun that way. Otherwise you will tickling mobs with your fine steel weps and dying in one hit.

I'm wondering if any of you played on Agnar/Cornaiv when they launched. Rogues took the same gear as Rangers to gear while leveling, and then had a way easier time in endgame due to Woven Shadow dropping (rotting most times) in Hate and other chain pieces. It took me about a week after hitting 46 to get BiS before PoSky

What I did is got a full suit of banded to start, grabbed two SBD until I could get 10+ DMG piercers. And before anyone goes on about how the proc will get you agro, that's what evade is for, as well provoke, stuns, snare/flamelick, and whatever it is SKs use in classic to hold agro (usually grouped with Paladins and Warriors), and Taunts by the tanks. Pop in two of the dot augs and your damage is fine till you get BiS.

Shoot for the best haste slot item you can get, and fill everything in with the most STR you can till you get as close to 255 as you can. Its not hard. I did it in a pretty casual feeder guild without any issues.

TLP isn't just about boxing the same four classes every single time. One thing you can be certain about rogues in your groups. They'll outdps those AFK casters for sure. Can't beat a rogue on a parse if you don't parse a single cast. Most of you don't. And you know who you all are.

A large portion of the issues rogues have in earlier expansions could be, if not fixed, eased with de-coupling piercing and backstab damage right away in Classic. It wouldn't solve all of the issues, but it would certainly help.

Yeah but you're still a rogue.

Rangers out damage rogues in classic. I'm not even joking. They do. Because of the 49 nuke. A bowing ranger with hawk pots and nukes will be pretty high on the parse actually, they will beat everyone but charm pets. And rangers actually make the best group tank in classic. Once kunark comes out they fall to near the bottom, but i'd still rather have a ranger over a rogue at 60, unless I'm exping for some reason.

That would feel gross, I'd rather give them powerful poisons.

How, exactly would it feel gross to make daggers suck less, compared to giving them a "powerful" poison I'm assuming you mean the seeds/Underfoot Bite of the Shissar poisons? We have them on Phinny now, Bite of the Shissar poison, on my rogue who has every proc AA currently available, is about 9% of my total damage done. and about that percentage for my dps.

So, giving lower level versions of that to rogues with no AAs is, unless they up the proc rate on it a lot, going to do something between nothing and nothing.

Looking at my non-combined fights. Any fight where I'm not pulling or on any sort of raid fight, it drops down to somewhere between 3 and 6% of DPS.

Oooh, I thought you meant let them backstab with any weapon. Just buff backstab damage? Sure I guess.

For poisons I would add TLP only poison recipes. Pick a few readily available items, there's tons of them that don't even do anything any more, and tons of other stuff as well, things like froglok eyes, crystalized sulfur, alchemy herbs, there's some herbs that are for poisons that don't work till shissar or whatever.

Anyway make the new poisons single procs that have longish applies. So like 20 second applies and one to five procs.

Things like 2 charge 3 minute root. Stun-> 16 second mez > memblur, 3 charge 2 minute lifedrain, slow. Long stun (5 charges of 16 second stun, 1 min cd).

They would have a long apply time (so not worth applying in groups) but would allow rogues to be way more self sufficient.


Useful things, make them a bit pricey, and also not super DPSy.

Rogues could apply them to extra daggers and basically solo via chaining a different cd every 1-2 minutes.

Open with a stun mez on a mob, run los, root a mob, move out of range, Life drain and long stun on your best daggers, use the stuns to get backstabs, and the life drain to somewhat maintain life. Once it dies reapply stun and drain, kill the rooted mob when it breaks, reapply kill the mob left in zone, bandage up to 70% hp.

No stronger than an enchanter or shaman or necro, not a huge increase to dps (but a little bit, makes them parse a bit better)

Would make rogues great to play, and be relatively balanced. Going to farm poisons would be a thing rogues would need and want to do. Like getting the flowers from seb for your new kunark poison.

Add those basic poisons, add one for every expansion. Boom rogues don't suck anymore.

Also while we're at it give warriors increased regen which gets progressively stronger but is removed by heals.

You guys are trying to treat symptoms. Rogues are weak because raw physical damage at low levels is weak, and rogues are wholly dependent on it while lacking in early utility.

Rogues could be fixed by adjusting damage rates. Either dramatically nerfing charm while weakening spell damage, or by buffing PC physical damage. Rogues are not so much a nerfed class as they are still playing with original values while most everyone else has been dramatically buffed - charm success, spell damage and resist rates, and monk innate ratios.

If you do something like add massive poison dps you merely bring them similar to monks, where most gear is minor and slapping on "bite of the tlp server VI" or whatever instantly validates them. Meanwhile every other melee without uber fists or poisons continues to suck until AFTER leveling and farming gear.

Geeze, that was alot of work in classic to be the bottom of the dmg meters. I hope you didn't think doing all that meant you were thought of as good or even useful. Rogues are a joke in classic - honestly a complete waste of space and frankly a waste of a raid spot. The only reason to bring a rogue to a raid in classic is so that loot doesnt rot. Not that it matters cause even with BIS gear in classic rogues are still worse than a mage pet in dmg. They should make Rogue not available to play till Kunark, honestly, they are that bad in classic.

Note - We are ONLY talking about Mangler and we are ONLY talking about Classic. Once Kunark hits and you can get your epic rogues become much better, though still get outshined by other classes. Velious+ Rogues can get really solid in raids and can easily get in top 5 of many fights.

The PSA is strong here: Don't Play a Rogue in Classic. Yall remember that add of the native american guy crying? It was about people playing rogues in classic.

Camping a total of maybe 3-4 named and picking up loot in a plane that is sitting there rotting (which Warriors, Clerics, and some of the other Hate armor is easy to get too) is too much work? Here tell us in detail the amount of effort it takes for you to gear your favorite class in classic?

Truth be told there is definitely something weird going on here in how many of you are taking to this. I know this thread wasn't created out of the kindness of the hearts of a few disgruntled boxers and raiders. So anyone reading this should take these sort of responses with a grain of salt.

Having played a Rogue in Classic, all the way to Eye of Veeshan (an encounter I do quite remember having a discussion about with a raid leader who was complaining that they had enchanters rerolling to rogues and monks...something about charm'd pets being problematic there), I can honestly say its not that bad and you can still find groups and slots in raids. Regardless of how often these people say you can't.

Even if they do suck in classic, they are fine in Kunark. It’s 3 months of being sub optimal. It only really matters if you don’t plan to go past the trilogy, but if that’s the case why not play on p99?