VMWare and Virtual Machines Oh No

He has not really replied to your post so I am quoting ya again. Date on the page was made 12/09/2015

Absolutely wrong there is NO Virtual Machine Manager that does that. You are confusing the fact that a Peripheral device gets turned on generates the exact same sequence as a real machine would get no less no more. All input devices and all output devices, IF NOT directly connected are presented exactly as they are to a real machine. Why on earth do you have this belief that Microsoft Windows magically itself so it can work in VMWare especially when they would love their Virtual Client to Rule the Roost?

I thought you were just being lazy saying they were Emulators. Virtual Storage and Virtual Machines use the CPU's (hint if you have a CPU that does NOT support Virtual machines then you dont get to play with the big boys) SPECIALIZED instructions to facilitate the Virtual Machines. This is not emulation, this is Physical Resource Management. This is NOT significantly different from Virtual Storage. You are aware of what is meant by protected storage aren't you? You are aware that the VM's Machines is logically protected from any access except the Operating System running in the Client. Logically protects as IN Virtual Storage Management, IF there were NO Virtual Storage then the REAL Memory allocated is mapped 1 for 1 in the Client and the HOST does NOT specificaly have access to it any more so than a REAL computer would have. I/O devices are in fact virtualized UNLESS they are connected directly get the word directly? That means the REAL device is removed from the HOST System and is ALLOCATED to the Virtual Client. Do you still think this is all some hocus pocus running?

When the Virtualized I/O is presented to the Client OS everything works EXACTLY AS THOUGH IT WERE REAL TO THE CLIENT OS. You do NOT seriously think Linux, Windows etc would magically reconfigure themselves JUST TO run VMWare do you?

Look up VM370, OS/VMS (wont even really challenge you with Burroughs) and get a feel for exactly how long I have worked with VM/VS, now take their introduction date and subtract 5 years from that and that is how long I have been involved with Operating Systems. So yes I do have a much better understanding than you are presenting yourself as knowing. At the end of the day you can make all these assertions but it wont change the reality that your wrong.

Go to Device manager in the Client and get the Device Driver for the local disks and WHO they are certified Microsoft drivers the exact same one YOU would run on a real computer,right down to the version and date time stamp. So no you can tell that way either.

No more so or no less than the HOST OS (a single instance Hypervisor as your speaking) can.

Seriously It is really hard to believe in these days with the cloud, free access to VMPlayer, Linux and VirtualBox etc. That there is this belief that these VM Supervisors are peering in, doing a machine code to source code reverse compile and determining how they are going to mess with programs.

One would want to believe half of what is being said and posted are just being made up.

The premise that ORACLE (VirtualBox) and VMWare (Workstation and Player) is out there manipulating the clients is ... just laughable. Their Billion Dollar Corporations will fall instantly if YOU can prove that.

Ok, ever heard of LUA, VBS, WinBatch to name just a tiny fraction of EASY to get software that, so to speak, entire existence is to "sendkey" (a windows call) from a program to another program and my goodness that has NOTHING to do with Virtual Machines. Virtual Machine A IS NOT going to "sendkey" squat to Virtual Machine B. IF they want to talk then they are going to MUTUALLY agree on a "Named Pipe" on the internal network and whoa IF I turn the network interface off good by talking to anything.

There was one thing that I intentionally left out that DB could take exception with BUT that is so easy (the reason I left it out) to work around and solves nothing vs N computers running behind a common router that it would be curious why they would punish people for that. At a high level it is about Block Banning. Enough said on that.

Nice Edit job on the information BUT here is the reality:

"Doing any of the following on ANY server may result in action being taken against your Daybreak Account:

• Unattended Gameplay: Any method that lets a character take actions while you’re not at your keyboard.
• Playing on virtual machines.
• Any attempt to circumvent the /pickzone timer."

I do not own DayBreak, their employees do not work for me. That means they are free to do as they want when ever they want. I am a guest in their house and believe it or not I play by their rules 100%.

I will never lie to them I will never try to cover anything I do up.

It would be pointless to do so.

You "may" want to understand the word "may". And lets agree to NOT edit something such that it becomes something it isn't ... ok?

Now then, not as a challenge to DB, but how I spend my time and entertainment dollars is my business not theirs. I will NOT let DB or anyone else, that is for entertainment, run outside a sandbox (aka vm) that is not locked down from interaction with the other parts of my computer that has nothing to do with entertainment. This is not negotiable. I do not accuse DB or anyone else, I say this only as an example. I will NOT take any risk under any circumstance that software that I installed could use a Key Logger to gain information, such as user id's and passwords to Bank Accounts etc. It isn't going to happen.

Even in the sandbox EQ runs in I had a pause when they opened the default web browser. HAD they strayed anywhere outside their own domains or given me any reason to believe they were accessing anything outside their own domains and I would have pulled the plug on them in a heart beat and we would NOT be having this conversation.

There are the two sides to a consumer - producer relationship.

I understand what your getting at but take a stroll through your servers and see the plat farmers (the few days I have been back I have identified 3 so far). That has always been a bannable offense.

Continuing this discussion pretty much is void.

Daybreak decided to not support nor allow their games inside virtual machines - links to official knowledgebase entries have been given.
Just like other companies they do check if the software runs inside a vm (and if you are as savy as you appear you know how to at least try to get rid of the backdoor that vmware tools add to check for such - just to give an example. but not saying that will help on the long run).

Official statement from Piestro back then (oct 2013).
Current (dec 2015) has been linked already and there are even more postings from officials to be found on the forums (archives),
Posting from RadarX (may 2015).

So they do have their stance and that is it. Regardless how much we discuss it here - it will lead us nowhere. Sorry.

Totally agree it will not change anything.

PS Yara_AB, I read that link and like all the others, DB is acting responsibly ... in my opinion to enforce their rules as laid out in the ToS. I read a lot of speculations, most of which somehow assumes SOE/DB is going to say We Banned Joe for Doing this on the Boards. That has never been their policy. Joe is free to say what ever he wants to as far as that goes ... yeah if he can but it doesn't make what he says true.

*Shrug* at the end of the day, I have no problem putting my fate in DB's hands based on everything that has been linked.

You know, had I known this much false information on VM's and all the drudging up the past etc. was going to be, I would have simply talked to Praythun directly to see the thinking. I am sure he has a good reason. Test Center was, has been and continues to be the Dev's sandbox not the players there, they are just lab rats, something to many lost sight of long ago. So all of this was 100% curiosity, not rebellion or an attempt to change anything.

Please stop. No one cares what you do and whether or not your level 76 gets banned just don't come back here complaining on another account when it happens as you HAVE been warned.

And it's Prathun.

I don't have a Level 76 so you do not need to be worried about my safety but thanks for the touching concern.

You don't seem to know what levels you do have, what servers they are on or indeed how many expansions EQ has (hint: it's not 23) unfortunately.

Oh this is great some one finaly knows what happened, as in everything there is to know about my characters, so please let us (me and db) know. Pretty please with sugar on top?

Glad some one was able to find one of my characters that was apparently 76 according to you, now to get DB to find out why you know what they could not determine. How about I link this information for them?

Would this be one of the two missing shamans and it wandered on over to your account for safe keeping? That would be great and you could let her know she can come home now there is a spot at the table for her.

After reading all three threads you started, with many people trying to help you, I just have to ask... what the heck is "test center"? You've mentioned it multiple times, do you mean the test server or as a term for something else? As far as vm, I really hope your station Id is the same as your payed account for easier tracking by dbg

You had to have been there to understand things.

You do know that DB did respond to my petition right? Having read all my post's, I am honored you would take so much of your time.

As I said I am 100% Ok with DB enforcing its ToS.

As I have said I will not lie to them, I will not try to con them, I will not try to hide anything from them. I will comply with the ToS 100% even if you and others do not.

And for the interesting thing, I do not wish harm on anyone .... clearly you do and that would suggest our Karma is going in opposite directions. We each choose the Wolf we want to feed.

I comply so completely that I do not KS (for you Kill Steal) these strange players that are AFK at high plat mobs that willingly place themselves in harms way by these said mobs. Oh wait thats right they are so high level the mobs can not hurt them and the merc tank dispatches them in under 10 seconds and the player doesn't need to do anything at all.

Looks like this post is being derailed, but I agree that DB's anti-VM policy is total BS. As the OP stated, VMs protect end users (including protection from DB). There are only two reasons DB would be opposed to VMs:

1) Cheating. This is a excuse, not only because it is easy to hide the fact that you are using a VM. But it does allow them to make wildly far-fetched advertising claims like a "no boxing" server. ROFL.
2) Total control of your computer and access to your information. This is the real reason that DB doesn't want you to use VMs. When you use a VM, it is almost impossible for DB to gather information about what else you are doing (outside of that particular VM), what kind of computer you are using, where you are going on the internet, etc..

There is no cheating in EQ because you are only playing against yourself and your lifestyle. "Cheating" in EQ is the same as Prohibition and "Just Say No" campaigns: something completely irrelevant that keeps the masses distracted from the fact that the game company is only focused on taking your money but doesn't have anything new to offer. Since EQ isn't a competition (except maybe to see who has the most free time), there can't be cheating in the normal sense. You literally can't even see what other players stats are, so how can you compete with them? Achievements? Those are bought now, remember? Quit trying to compete for the Person With The Most Free Time award and let other people play it how they want.

/rawr

Really? You can't explain what you meant by test center, okie dokie. I am actually going to admit I have no clue what your talking about. Is this really a quest to shine a light on something you perceive is wrong with eq, KS, plat farming & general cheating? None of which I do, and in fact something In terms of unattended play I have gotten players a short vacation for.

Derd, did you just brag about being a tattletale? That last sentence was a little difficult to understand

I picked two random VM's on my network and expanded 'Disk drives'

VMWare virtual disk
Virtual HD ATA device

Could a savvy person doctor this driver to foil a VM scan? Sure.
Is the average user going to do this? No.
Can you often discern physica/virtual OS this way? Totally

Now you're talking about something entirely different. Back to the point, a VMM can absolutely access guest memory; this is the foundation of memory-aware load balancing and memory deduplication technologies.

Curious why you chose to NOT display the drivers.

But let fix that over sight for you

VMWare, VMWare Virtual S SCSI Disk Device
[Driver] Tab

Driver Provider: Microsoft
Driver Date: 6/21/2006
Driver Version: 6.1.7601.19133
Digital Signer: Microsoft Windows

Why does everyone think that half truths will prevail?
I said the Drivers were Microsoft they are, why did you choose to omit that?

You speak in terms of generalities as if VMWare and Oracle are out to get you and everyone else. Let me give you a free clue, Page swaping is performed by the OS so yes your precious Real Computer Memory can be accessed by Windows / Linux for swapping as you laid out Oh my what a big cheat that is The OS is picking on DB to allow the user to cheat.

So yes a VMM (so your not lazy like the other ... posters) is conceptually like the OS yes the VM's consume more resources than the REAL computer has. Yes this is Virutal Management IDENTICAL functionality wise to YOUR REAL OS deciding the memory is over committed and needs to (hard) page.

Fine you want to call that access to memory in the context of enabling CHEATING go for it but I will simply throw it back at you the same ARGUMENT APPLIES TO REAL COMPUTERS. At some level I hope you can really appreciate the stupidity of that perception.

NO in fact the arguments being made are ANY PROGRAM CAN ACCESS ANY OTHER PROGRAMS MEMORY AT WILL ACROSS VMM PROTECTED REGIONS. That is pure total fictional BS. IF you have proof that VM Client A user program can access VM Client B User program memory without consent or protection then YOU BE THE HERO and take Oracle and VMWare down.

Get back to reality instead of speaking of as though every USER PROGRAM is ran in OS/Supervisor Mode.

To head off any more of this trash talk. Yes VM Client A can put something on the clipboard. Yes VM Client B (if VMTools is installed) can paste from that clipboard. BUT VM Client A CAN NOT FORCE ON ITS OWN ACTIONS VM Client B to paste it. THAT action needs to be initiated in VM Client B.

YES I can run a program In VM Client A that creates a Named Pipe and acts as the master (for simplicity), Yes I can run a program in VM Client C that opens and interacts with that Named Pipe. CAN YOU comprehend that is NOT A VM ISSUE it is 100% the the OS running in the Clients ISSUE?

CAN YOU comprehend I would NOT need to change a single line of code in either programs To do EXACTLY THE SAME THING on two computers runing REAL on a network?

Your inability to distinguish USER programs using the Operating Systems features to perform a task from VMM's asset management is ... rather strange.

For those that do not know what he is referencing here is a fair information piece on it. Yep that is one heck of a cheat don't you think? Wonder how many DB members do this, OH YOU THOUGHT IT WAS FREE? If you dont get it, it is NOT a user program duplicating another user programs memory IN USER MODE. It is the Operating System putting a counter on a Page indicating the number of pages that are using this read only page based on them being identical IN SUPERVISOR MODE. When a page is changed/dirty then the counter is reduced by one and a NEW PAGE IS CREATED for the Changed/Dirty page.

"Active Memory™ Deduplication is a feature that is available on systems that have the PowerVM® Active Memory Sharing technology. PowerVM Active Memory Sharing is available with the PowerVM Enterprise Edition hardware feature. Active Memory Deduplication is a virtualization technology in which memory pages with identical contents are coalesced (or deduplicated) in physical memory. Active Memory Deduplication aggregates the same data in one memory position, and frees other duplicate memory blocks, thus optimizing memory use."

VMs allow users to efficiently utilize their own hardware and help to protect users by isolating applications from other applications. When you click on the launchpad executable you downloaded, you give it full access to your entire computer. But if you run it inside a VM, you only give it full access to that VM. This is a good safe-computing practice for all computer users (and computer activities), and I have recommended it for years as an IT professional. If you have ever heard of "sandboxing", VMs are perfect example.

DB/EQ's ban on VMs goes against safe computing practices and increases users' vulnerability to malicious attacks.

It is also short-sighted, as VMs (and other virtualization technologies) are the current direction that everything is headed. It is nearly synonymous with the "cloud".

Because it's not relevant. The stance is that no VM-installed instance of EQ is permitted, regardless of the disk driver version - it's just an easy way to say "Ohey, looks like we're on a VM!"

Hardly, but again, not relevant to the stance of DGC. Virtualization providers typically have a non-disclosure or limited liability agreement with the customers running virtual apps or instances on their platforms.

DGC on the other hand, is only out stop VMM-loaded cheating tools run by the player because DGC's cheat detection runs within the guest. I'm not saying it's right, or even smart... just the reason the policy exists.