TDS Raid Event 3: Principal Vicarum Nomia - Progression!

All these things are true and possible. Certainly as possible as RoI faking wins (not very likely and IMO not something to obliquely suggest by threatening to purge their name from a leaderboard event if they don't provide full raid logs).

Logs are not incontrovertible proof. They aren't even good proof. Detecting them as fakes is just as dependent on someone in a 60 player group not keeping mum about an improper win claim as is a report without logs.

The potential for harm to a guild by sharing logs is real enough that most (all?) raid guilds have a rule not allowing raid info to be shared. Already there's some concern that responding to OPs request that anyone can forward a log players did without authorization and in violation of guild rules. That's a serious offense - not something an outsider should have encouraged. And it provides a tremendous amount of leverage on that individual should EGL want to "privately resolve an allegation without having to contact guild officers" in the future. Logs kplsthnx~

It's horrid precedent.

I agree with BB (the world isn't ending, it just may seem like it).

Stupid precident. Any guild who claims as win they didn't deserve may show up on the rankng site for a bit. But people will talk about a real win or a fake win, ect.

I really don't think it's needed. We've seen guilds with bugged wins not claim a win until they won properly.
At least the upper end of guilds are proud of what they do. And counting a fail as a win would not feel right to them. So they wouldn't do it.

Quote me all ya want Silent, was under the impression RoV LIKE RoI Triton IL and few others WERE NOT going to break their policies cuz Myk pretty much had a TOOL of an idea to fix her agenda or whatever she thought she was fixing. Whoever submitted their logs? kudos to them for dismissing their Leaders wishes and also for resolving nothing.

Maehdros to me its not about the paranoia for one. Yea I think too that strats could be gotten outta logs whatever but my point from the beginning, was that the OP s concern was about bugged wins and manipulating "standings" by reporting bugged victories.So the answer was to hold a gun to the head of guilds that DID beat it the right way and make them submit logs which that in themselves could easily be tampered with edited etc and did NOTHING FOR THE OP S supposed fix.

So I ask....what exactly did it resolve other the feed into the OP s tool of an idea that was going to fix nothing because the fix could be as bugged as the bug it was intended to fix?

You nailed it. It's funny the Paranoid Level Here.

1) The idea of Logs for Strats is just plain Silly in 2014. EQ isn't a strategy game anymore. For at least 3+ beta's the Developers have posted full walk through of events. Plus Achievements give giant hints of what to do by saying "Do Tower of Rot without charming you get an achievement" which even a 6th grader can say means "Hmmm we can charm"

Eq is an Execution Game. ROI can say Tank Mob X with ROI Tank 42 + heal that tank with Cleric 17 & Good old Druid 3. And the question isn't "well gee should we tank that mob" its what other guilds have a Tank Geared Enough to do so and healers good enough enough to do the job with just a cleric + druid. Same thing with Kiters. It's not "Hey Kite" its a question of who has the best Kiters.

This thread doesn't exist in a Vacuum. Tell me ranking's don't matter to people and accuracy
and then go to this thread" https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/tds-off-raid-1-titas-ghost.215197/page-10

And see Triton and ROV say "We are the only legitimate winners of Tita's Ghost" and ROI basically say they don't believe them. ((That thread is screaming for a "Send in Logs!" line) Triton even updated thier Webpage to have "Serverwide First Legit Kill on it."

On Page 9 Axius Said

Or do you list the wipe+chest 'wins' together with legit ones for the progression events too? The guilds who got the chest on a wipe got the loot/currency/keys/lockouts - all the attributes of a successful kill.[/quote]

Meanwhile, Battleaxe in Triton argues it's not EGL's job to decide if a kill is legit or not, it's Sonys and rants and rants here. I hope for sake of consistancy he has an epic rant on his own forums saying "It's not Triton Webmaster's or Axxius job to determine the other kills are Legit". I'll wait I guess for Battleaxe to Quote Axius and say it's Sony's Job to Determine that not his.

I'm so bored with the Double Standard here.

Not to mention, guild rankings are not just a matter of the Strat they are product of Raid Design.
https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/dps-for-a-few-classes.215772/
If your a Melee heavy guild you're going to move down some spots this expansion.
If your a Caster heavy guild you're going to move up some spots this expansion.
((You can revamp your roster, but that takes time)

Its probable that any guild that thought they could rely on its members to maintain silence after making a false claim (highly unlikely) wouldn't hesitate to alter a log to provide a veneer of "proof" to maintain the fiction - might as well be hung like a wolf as a sheep.

In one of the very few cases of a guild claiming a kill was legitimate when challenged by SOE that SOE made public* (the guild mounted a PR campaign after the fact and SOE Absor smashed it) Conquest swore up and down it did not exploit and had no intention of exploiting vs. The Sleeper.

SOE quoted their guildchat publicly and extensively.

Kinda highlights the difference between real proof and fake proof doncha think?

*Conquest and SOE's reply were both done publicly. There's no forum violation in this rare case that I can see.

Matter of fact I posted on the topic of doing events as devs intended them to be done, alternatives not challenged, alternatives that no longer could be done because of changes to an event and exploitation (SOE decides what exploitation is).

And de jure Progression Achievement vs. de facto achievement and the arguments favoring both views.

I listed 6 possible negative consequences to guilds providing full raid logs to a competing guild in addition to raid strats and you focus on raid stats? Really? Guilds don't allow sharing raid information for very good reasons. Raid strats is only one of them. MS got an unprecedented dump of info from multiple competing guilds. A data mining bonanza.

The astroturf marketing campaign in support of an indefensible EGL initiative would be boring if it wasn't so transparent and therefore amusing.

I need to repost more constructively since I know I shouldn't name call or it will be removed.

But the undeniable Reality Battleaxe is you
1) Called out EGL over trying to decide what is a "Legitimate Kill or Not"
2) But didn't call out your own guild for doing the same thing.

You may have Hemmed-Hawed. And made rambling list of what dev's have done in past. But you didn't Quote Axxius and say flat out it's not up to Axxius to decide what is a Legitimate Kill or not.
like you did with this thread.

Which brings me back to what I said far earlier in this thread. Every competitive guild cares about rankings to some degree and want's some mythical accuracy which sony will never ever provide.

Even yours (Triton) or else Triton wouldn't have scrolled upon it's own Webpage "Serverwide First Legit Kill" or made up their Own Ranking List on Tita's Ghost Thread.

That is a good question- to what degree do competitive guilds care about their ranking?

I am in a competitive guild. We are a top 5 guild in EQ. To me, I would like to be in a top 5/10 guild. Really doesn't matter that much what exact and specific slot it is; my goal is to be in a top 5/10 one. Which I am honored and blessed to be in.

I am a big sports fan. Take the NFL playoffs, for example. You will have six teams, and a #1 overall team. That helps me define a team as one of the three descriptions-

1. You are a #1 overall team
2. You are a playoff team
3. You are a team

Correlate that to EQ, you have-

1. Realm of Insanity
2. Inverse Logic, Triton, Ring of Valor, Machin Shin, a couple others I am forgetting while at work
3. Everyone else

I also feel that recruits, or players looking for a guild, are not looking to join the #3 or #9 or #16 guild. They are looking to join-

1. The #1 guild (server or serverwide)
2. A top 5/10 serverwide guild (or a top 2/3 on the server)
3. Everyone else

Once the race for #1 serverwide is done, I would imagine guilds then want to focus on being #1 on their respective server. To me, they care about that more than whether they are #3 or #7 or #9.

But that is my opinion. I could be wrong, I am sure there are some who extremely care about what specific ranking they are serverwide. I just believe most have a different thought approach.

PS- it is December 13. How does EGL look?

I fairly regularly post views that are different from those posted by my Guild Leader and other guildmates in the same thread. IMO no one in their right mind would go beyond that and "call out" their Guild Leader or their guild (an assortment of players that hold a variety of opinions).

My views are pretty consistent. SOE, as the publisher, makes the rules. Players have the privilege of questioning those rules in an effort to have them changed.

When asked not too long ago about the PoWar raid in /tells by a member of another guild I replied, "I can't share raid strategy." This prohibition wasn't new to me nor news to the other party. It is beyond belief that anyone would ask for/much less demand guild raid logs. I don't care about "for the good of us all" arguments, eyelash fluttering, cooing sounds or what have you. It's dead wrong.

When third party sites choose to substitute their legitimate kill standards for SOE's it shouldn't surprise anyone that some might join in on the fun either being dead serious or trolling leading guilds hard. I frankly don't know which it is in this case. Nor do I care.

Guild websites aren't the authoritative unofficial guild raid progression website nor have any to my knowledge demanded logs or be purged. With power comes responsibility. On the charge of encouraging random guildmembers to forward logs without authorization in violation of guild rules alone without consideration of other negative consequences EGL did not meet their responsibility.

You disagree? Counter argument please.

I realize that sounds a lot like Our shenanigans are cheeky and fun. Their shenanigans are cruel and tragic, but that's what it is.
.......
BTW it's at the stroke of midnight (Hawaii) that out fine carriages are supposed to turn into pumpkins.

I've already said 5+ times Guild's shouldn't have to Turn in Logs but only because of Privacy of Members and the chance that something "Off color" is there. The Raid Strats or Data Mining arguments are Red Herrings designed to marshal support.

Heck, not every guild even cares if they help guilds "Tiers" behind them. I know I have helped my old guild in past telling them my experiences. I know a member of ROI who was in that same guild, that raided with them on an Alt and helped them and explained things to them too. This old guild wasn't a threat to pass either of us. Not to mention the fact as I said, every since Developers started posting Walk-Throughs + Raid Achievements EQ just isn't a Strategy Game anymore. It's an execution game.


The dual reality is that
1) every guild wants some accurate ranking system, even though it's never truly possible.
2) And every high end raiding guild is competitive.

This thread pulled out a lot of the top 3-4 guild members saying EGL was bad because they were trying to sort out 5-10 and they (ROI/IL/Shadows/Triton) were beyond that because they moved so fast that bugged kills couldn't mess with their ranking or be a factor in their relative ranking.

Yet, the moment something comes out like Tita's Ghost that effects them, those same guilds come a posting Triton is #1. Or ROI posters in that thread doubting them or making snide remarks like "pet tanking"

I

I can't let you off the hook that easily could have done something like this though.

If you can't post something like that.... that says a lot too.

Why would I post that when my view is:
"Some want to claim they are a raid achievement and should be part of any reasonable raid guild ranking system? I can see their point.

Some look at the progression achievement and note their absence? I can see their point too - however I'll also note that those grapes are not sour Mr. Fox. In fact they are especially sweet."

Obviously different than my GL's expressed exploit/legit point of view, in this case seeing a point to the de facto Progression Achievement argument but noting that the grapes are especially sweet. Being a fox who likes grapes I'll take the grapes progression achievement or not.

There's a difference between having an opinion and twisting arms so one can pursue a fishing expedition with competing guilds' logs.

A) There is some "reasonable" degree of interest from whoever
B) Maintaining a leader board is a waste of time and money

The guilds that most benefit from a leader board are guilds that exceed expectations. Inverse Logic - VoA, Darkwind - VoA (they hadn't even raided since SoF), Freelance - PoWar (although choose not to use EGL), Pain and Glory - CotF incl PoWar, Reckless Ascension - TDS.

One more place that people might find out about a guild especially relevant for guilds that reach a level that server transfers are more likely, I'm pretty sure everyone on Vox knows about P&G.

There is an additional benefit for target selection, no really, try Vitio if you have a decent number flagged for the raid, worst possible result is "wasting" 10min per week.

Guilds that benefit the least are those who fall short of expectations. It's better for people to assume a guild's progress based on prior results as opposed to actual current results.

These are raids which show current success and/or predict future success, the entries marked with a * do not currently show up on EGL.

Calix Quirinus

1. Realm of Insanity - 11/26/2014

*Praetor Vitio

1. Realm of Insanity - 11/12/2014
2. Triton - 11/23/2014
3. Ring of Valor - 11/24/2014
4. Shadows of Doom - 11/30/2014

5. Fire and Fury - 12/01/2014
6. Inverse Logic - 12/02/2014
7. Crimson Tempest - 12/07/2014

Principal Indagatrix Lucia

1. Realm of Insanity - 11/12/2014
2. Inverse Logic - 11/23/2014
3. Triton - 11/25/2014
4. Shadows of Doom - 11/30/2014
5. Ring of Valor - 12/08/2014

Principal Vicarum Nomia

1. Realm of Insanity - 11/12/2014
2. Inverse Logic - 11/13/2014
​3. Triton - 11/16/2014
4. Shadows of Doom - 11/17/2014
5. Ring of Valor - 11/30/2014

6. *Crimson Tempest - 12/02/2014
7. *Descendents - 12/04/2014
8. Machin Shin - 12/07/2014
9. Township Rebellion - 12/08/2014

Principal Quastori Numicia

1. Realm of Insanity - 11/12/2014
2. Inverse Logic - 11/13/2014
3. Triton - 11/14/2014
4. Shadows of Doom - 11/16/2014

5. Ring of Valor - 11/23/2014
6. Machin Shin - 11/24/2014
7. Silent Redemption - 12/02/2014
8. Reckless Ascension - 12/09/2014

*Captain Tita's Ghost

1. Realm of Insanity - 10/29/2014
2. Machin Shin - 11/10/2014
2. Pain and Glory - 11/10/2014
​4. Reckless Ascension - 11/18/2014

5. Phoenix Rises - 12/07/2014
6. Final Empire - 12/08/2014
7. Triton - 12/09/2014 - fastest time 21min
8. Ring of Valor - 12/10/2014 - fastest time 18m27s

Defense of the City

1. Realm of Insanity - 10/29/2014
1. Inverse Logic - 10/29/2014
3. Shadows of Doom - 10/30/2014
3. Triton - 10/30/2014
5. Machin Shin - 11/02/2014

5. Ring of Valor - 11/02/2014
5. Sol Invictus - 11/02/2014
8. Fu World Order - 11/03/2014
9. Township Rebellion - 11/04/2014
9. Fire and Fury - 11/04/2014

9. Descendents - 11/04/2014
12. Reckless Ascension - 11/06/2014
12. Crimson Tempest - 11/06/2014
12. The Silent Minority - 11/06/2014
15. *Freelance - 11/08/2014

16. Enceladus - 11/09/2014
16. Silent Redemption - 11/09/2014
18. Raging Fury - 11/10/2014
18. D`Pikeys - 11/10/2014
18. Firestormers - 11/10/2014

18. Pain and Glory - 11/10/2014
18. Final Empire - 11/10/2014
23. Five Rings - 11/16/2014
24. Red Band Brigade - 11/20/2014
25. Hellfire Club - 11/23/2014
26. Silent Resurgence - 11/24/2014

27. Ancient Dominion - 12/01/2014
28. Infinit / E'ci Public - 12/02/2014
29. Undivided Faith - 12/07/2014
29. Iratus Lepus - 12/07/2014
31. *Pandemonium - 12/09/2014

*Plane of War

1. Realm of Insanity - 06/23/2014
2. Triton - 08/04/2014
3. Shadows of Doom - 08/13/2014
4. Inverse Logic - 08/24/2014
5. Crimson Tempest - 09/07/2014

6. Freelance - 09/12/2014
7. Ring of Valor - 09/15/2014
8. Machin Shin - 09/22/2014
9. Silent Redemption - 09/29/2014
10. Pain and Glory - 10/02/2014

11. Descendents - 10/09/2014
12. Sol Invictus - 10/13/2014
13. The Silent Minority - 10/16/2014

So in a surprising coincidence the missing entries are a raid the "#2" guild beat 8th. A raid the same guild didn't get a "legit" win. A raid the same guild hasn't reported beating. Two guilds who finished a progression raid before that same guild. Freelance who chooses not to participate and one of the most recent kills which hasn't gone up while Mykaylla goes over logs.

Simply being inaccurate is one thing, if Grey Horizon is pulling recruits and/or tail from being the first guild in EQ to beat Vyemm good for them. If you have thousands of entries some of them will be wrong and in theory they could have trained/bannered past Aary, killed Vyemm and then decided not to go back to ToV for 3 weeks.

Deliberately choosing which information to present is something else entirely and Beimeith certainly is something else.

Dear God, you really are a conspiracy nut. I get the whole Plane of War debacle. I get the whole debate on Plane of War. I personally think Plane of War should have had it's own completely seperate to that expansion page. But shrug.

But the 1-offs weren't listed before a single guild beat anything. To suggest that decision to list them was based on some crystal ball of What Beimeith's guild could do or not to do. Is frankly insane.

What you, much like Battleaxe, keep attempting to do is present information in a way that fits your own agenda and you keep trying to round brown log into a square hole. You wanna be known as the offical source of rankings and beliefs. By your own system. Nice. Have fun. You can do that.

Just don't try to snow people that you are in way different than Beimeith. You are exactly equally as guilty of any agenda you accuse him off. Pot meet Maeyn.

And in this case, you are CURRENTLY guiltier. Since the EGL system was set up before the expansion and never changed. And your system suddenly has "Kill times" on Tita's Ghost. I wonder why the change?

Both of these tracking sites make me sigh.

It's painful to look at what EGL is becoming after the retirement of the previous MS leader. You don't need to omit every piece of information that indicates that MS is in a down swing. Ups and downs happen. And if demanding full logs is a sign of the things to come, the future of that site looks bad. Oh hey! What if MS beats Tita's Ghost legit before ROI? That's your big chance! List that event with only the legit wins.

The F&F page started as a glorified ROI fan site dedicated to recording everything ROI does that nobody else cares about (e.g. the raid achievements). And despite some credible efforts, it's still a ROI fan site. Even after the cat is out of the bag about Tita's Ghost, the blanket gag order remains, and you'd rather keep the exploiters who DA/Preinc it for 2 hours on that list than allow ROI to be listed anything but #1 even on one event. That gives EGL more credibility for disqualifying illegit wins.

Dear EQResource! Everything you touch turns to gold, and you aren't owned by any big guilds. Please make a global raid win tracking page. Maybe it will be more accurate and less biased than the MS and ROI fan sites.

So if EQ Resource ultimately decides to start and maintain a list (or anyone else for that matter).... how would they be able to verify legitimate wins? Would they be allowed to look at full guild logs?

It seems as though unless it was something that SOE would/could do, that might really be the only legitimate way to verify. Otherwise you are using the honor code, screenshots of a chest, achievement time stamps, or logs. I don't know of any other way to verify proof.

They should also erase all of your un-legit wins on events that you guys pet tanked.

Most of your kills would be gone.

baffles me. really it does. LOGS ARE NOT THE ANSWER REGARDLESS of who would maintain a site . PERIOD END OF STORY. They can be manipulated even EASIER then anything else. Do I have a answer here? not really atm but I KNOW that LOGS are not the answer. Its as simple as that.

What conspiracy? Every member of Descendents and/or Crimson Tempest keeping quiet about a bugged win requires the co-operation of many. Beimeith not posting wins is just one person making a decision, no conspiracy. Mykaylla the non-raider has no part in the decision to list a guild or not.

If you keep track of what guilds do in EQ you're going to promote RoI. I mean EGL is a glorified RoI fansite:

Nov 18th, 2010 - RoI beats HoT Cazic the day after Crimson Tempest and Triality
Dec 8th, 2010 - RoI beats Thule Awakening the same day as CT and Triality and is listed 3rd because of time of kill or whatever reason

In the last 4 full years:

• on 55 of 66 raids listed by EGL, RoI is listed as beating it first
• 2 raids, Thule SS5 and VoA Beasts Domain, Triality beats 1 day sooner
• 3 RoF ToV Dragons are beaten by 3 guilds 2 days sooner than RoI while RoI beats 9 progression raids, none of those 3 guilds beats a RoF progression raid before RoI beats Vulak
• RoF Vyemm is apparently beaten by Grey Horizon first, RoI beats it later that day
• RoF Phantasm is listed as Machin Shin beating it first, RoI beats it later the same day
• RoF Glimpse is listed as Shadows of Doom beating it first, RoI beats it later the same day
• CotF Doomscale RoI is 4th in timestamp order with a 1st day kill after Raging Fury, SoD and MS
• CotF Lendiniara and Bayle RoI is 2nd in timestamp order with a 1st day kill after MS

The point of listing achievements is that some people do care: http://www.pikeys.net/news/2014/10/20/a-quick-addendum/

So while Shadows of Doom has a pretty clear progression lead among European guilds and progression will far more commonly be the reason why someone picks a specific guild if the days that SoD raids, being rejected by SoD, wanting to join the underdog or whatever reason means you don't join SoD then you have something else to consider.

Considering could go either way "oh dear Tunare I would never join D'Pikey I can't believe those losers waste time on ach" or "sweet, I like the attitude/variety represented by a guild making the effort to complete all the raid ach".

Promoting RoI is completely pointless, 4 years of domination does that far better than any website can, that's why Quarken so rarely makes updates. Sure Qulas might cry when I remind him I beat Aary before he did but then he beats PoWar and 7 TDS raids in less than 3 hours and gets over it.

Listing achievements is to promote D'Pikey or any other guild that decides there has to be more than EQ raiding than just farming the same raids over and over as quickly as possible. And admittedly will also turn off some people from wanting to join that guild.

As for "legit" Ghost, lets pretend that RoI has a 50% chance of beating Ghost "legit" on the basis that they did things like beat Arx 2-4 on the same day and that Triton (11 days) and RoV (15 days) have beaten Ghost "legit".

Note that unlike Triton not beating PoWar until 19 days after it was patched if there is a raid RoI hasn't beaten they attempt it every day that they raid as long as they can access it.

Oct 29 - RoI attempts to win "legit", fails, pre-incarnates to avoid wiping and gets a cheese win - 50%
Nov 3 - 2nd attempt to win Ghost "legit", fail again - 25% chance of no "legit" win
Nov 8 - 3rd attempt - 12.5% chance of failing all 3 times if they have a 50% chance of matching the skill/strat/luck of Triton or RoV
Nov 13 - 4th attempt - 6.25% chance of no "legit" win
Nov 18 - 5th attempt - 3.13% chance
Nov 23 - 6th attempt - 1.56% chance
Nov 28 - 7th attempt - 0.78% chance
Dec 3rd - 8th attempt - 0.39% chance
Dec 8th - 9th attempt - 0.2% chance or 1 in 512 chance, if you believe RoI has "only" a 50% chance to beat Ghost "legit", they do not have a "legit" win before

Dec 9th - Triton wins "legit"
Dec 10th - RoV wins "legit"

Let alone if you believe RoI has a better than 50% chance based on things like 4 years of domination, beating pre-nerf PoWar and beating 4 TDS raids for the first time in one day unless of course you also think one or more of Arx 2-4 and Vitio weren't "legit" wins.

All the wins are listed on Ghost because to me all the wins are legit. Guilds have openly stated they used unconventional tactics. No reports of loot taken away or suspensions. 2 full patches and those tactics still work. No statement by SOE that "while there are higher priority issues SOE frowns upon tactics used by some guilds on Tita's Ghost raid and will address the raid once higher priority issues are resolved".

Times added as a proxy for "legit" wins by player created standards and also to clarify how long "unconventional tactics" take. If guilds report plowing all but last wave and then slowly finishing off the raid but still taking "only" 45 minutes a number of guilds might decide that attempting Ghost is worth the time for their guild. If it's 75 or 105 or 125 minutes fewer guilds will be inclined to try the raid.

You know presenting data based on trusting information I receive since I have no reliable method to verify that information and EGL, EQResource or anyone else besides SOE won't either. In the long run it will be accurate because if Triton didn't really win in 21min eventually someone changing guilds, quitting EQ or just tired of a fake time being posted will let the cat out of the bag.

Maybe this thread gets someone in Grey Horizon to come forward. Already got information on a SoD win and two CT wins probably specifically due to this thread. If a bunch of "mid-tier" guilds start reporting first wins on Vitio I'll get a special feeling in the cockles of my heart, maybe below the cockles, maybe in the sub cockle area because maybe my efforts to report results means guilds get some presents from Vitio just in time for Christmas.

And no complaints from Axxius or anyone else will take that feeling away so trying my best to compile the results of raids will continue to be worth my time whatever people think about putting names in bold if they complete achievements or listing Pain and Glory as beating Ghost just because of the twisted logic that they beat Ghost.

We do not report bugged wins, not sure if/what you are implying there or if that is for the sake of argument. We have beaten event 3 and Vitio legitimately, I'd love to hear this "information".

What I mean is your win isn't on EGL, I didn't know it existed, shortly after posting the # of TDS wins for guilds that did and didn't beat PoWar I got a PM about CT wins and added Vitio and Arx3 wins.