To be fair, more than once I have invited an enchanter into a group where I really didn't think we needed one(already had a bard, were pet tanking, weren't going to need cc, whatever the reason) with the justification of "well...at least if we aren't fully utilizing them they can do some respectable dps" I am also aware that enchanters don't necesarily want dps, but at the end of the day I think they have to realize you aren't always going to be in content that really needs what a chanter can bring to the group and dps is a good, if not the best fallback ability you can have.
Post feed back in the same thread. You know talk to us. State something like 'well dire charming a lv 100 is way to powerful for the game' or 'charming level +3 would make enchanters way to powerful or cause to much dev work flaging everything charm immune' at which point I would hope you would get a responce like 'would it be plausable to put in random spawning Lv-1 mobs though all zones that are charmable so that enchanters (and other classes) can charm?' most of us are human (there some varity of elfs, eurdites, and draken, gnomes as well I guess ) and are very much willing to talk and hear out reasoning why IDEA#783621 is to stupidly powerful or creates a reliance on enchanters (once again dunno about them gnomes ). But making entire current content were single pulling is a given, slows arn't realy needed, all mobs are over leveled or flagged immune to charm states to the majoirty of whats left of the enchanter player base a big (instert massive explitives here)
Thanks for having pity and inviting an unneeded class to groups. If the intent is to be a DPS class, they may as well just merge us with wizards and be done with us. I play my enchanter (since 1999) for reasons other than nuking. In the old days, I never even had a nuke loaded. I play my enchanter to enjoy what enchanters can do. If I'm restricted to purely a dps role, I'll play my wizard (boring) or rogue instead.
I don't think the "intent" is to be a DPS class. But the fact remains that DPS and aDPS are a "good thing" in any setup. A lot of "what's wrong with enchanters" is that groups don't know how to use them, or why having one is always batter than not having one. At least the DPS lets Enchanters compete with a Wiz merc for the slot. And the Chaotic Mez and Chromatic Nukes together give an Enchanter "respectable" DPS. I like that Elidroth is very direct in his answers. And we can't expect the Devs to blow too much time in the forums as opposed to developing content. But it would be nice to know that the Enchanter Class means something more to the Dev's than just a "pain in their aspirations" when designing. Enchanters are meant to be able to bend the rules of the game - without breaking it. That alone makes them tricky to "deal with" when making changes. -R
I agree. I am always happy to see a dev comment because I know it's not their job. But don't they pay an individual to be here on the forums interacting with us and giving us feedback (and taking note of our feedback as well?) Or am I wrong in what that job actually is for?
Lonye, One comment. An Enchater who "rips aggro off a Raid Tank" for over-runeing him - too much too soon, will be tolerated about as long as a Wizard who gets aggro from a Raid Tank by burning nooks - too much too soon. Both will soon be looking for new employment. Of that I'm sure. Now, to speak for myself. In the group game I'm pretty intolerant of anybody who does "too much too soon" and rips aggro off me (Ranger). If I have to start burning my mana (to spam the Summer's nook) to regain or hold aggro (with taunt, snare, two hate aug weaps, and "Enraging heel kicks" at my normal disposal) one will find me likely "full group" the next time. (Of course I'll try to explain nicely 1st.) -Rat
If your doctor said 'other doctors are bad because they only know one type of medicine or diagonstics' would you take him at his word? Pot shots aside, a lot of enchanters on the forums and in serverwide know how to play 90+% of the enchanter class. Weither or not dandin, and by extent others, chose to reconise this is completly up to that person, you and I included. Knowing the '7 secrets of an enchanter' or what ever number and not being willing to discuss the class as a whole does not make one player better than the other. In seeing Jordis's posts and talking with him in serverwide i would say he is fairly knowledgeable on the enchanter class as a whole, and im sure there are some aspects that he doesnt know, just as you and I dont know all the aspects of the enchanter class. If you think you do then I would recommend rethinking. Much more so if you think you exccel at being able to preform every last aspect that an enchanter can do. I know I dont exccel at every aspect, but i can preform 90% of them, and if shown a new tactic i can adjust and assimlate the tactic. This ability to change, adapt, and assimilate into ever changing situations and make 2+2=5 is what makes an enchanter an enchanter to me. We are all human IRL (I hope) we all have our own ways we would rather do things, our own things we prefer. but this does not make the way any one else does something wrong when they dont do it your way/ I Look foward to your video and the chance to potentaly learn more. PS: I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, I'm trying to make logical discussion based off what you have written here in this thread and in past ones that i have seen
Chanters always benefited groups (and back then many raids, too) a lot, but the new tale seems to be that mezing and CC = boring. So i wonder why, are we trying to write a new game here? Even in GoD, the pinnacle of uber charm Pets, people still had a lot of respect for the expansion as whole and it's actually known as the most unforgiving in Eq history along with UF. Why did it work back then? I'll tell you why, because not all zones had these charm pets and people actually liked to watch it when it was possible. Such a pet was an event, just like a good chanter stopping trains was an event for others (and the Chanter of course). Where's the big difference between that and today's super tanks who just take several mobs instead of CC, all the different ways of splitting that countless classes have by now, the insane burst dps (how often does a SK buddy pull ~10 mobs (yellow cons!) for the Zerker to AE burn... Just if Encs do something that is considered OP it seems to be a red flag. But meh i am sure Eldiroth and the others have an explanation for that too. But even they cannot changed that the Chanter will always be remembered as the most brilliant designed class of the old days, in every forum in random other game threads you can find comments about how awesome it was and oh if we only could have Eq chanters again. Yep if only we could have them again, that goes for Eq itself too by now.
I've never experienced, raid & group tanking since SoF, or witnessed in a previous decade of healer raiding & grouping, enchanter agro from runes being a "thing". Not even in Kunark, doing basically stunt groups with runes & bandages. I've seen accidental mem blurring, that's a thing. And at a few realllly "fun" times over the years agro on charmed pets being a thing. Is pulling agro with runes really an issue for y'all? Seems outlandish in the face of current agro tools. Oh! unless you mean PoWar? I discount all crazy happenings in that bizarro world.
I don't raid much but I'll give you the experience I had in the Shards Landing raid. We had all those nifty fellows spawned (the witnesses and such) and some were being kited, but the ones that could be mezzed were up to me. Every single time I refreshed my runes the sks who were kiting would lose aggro on the ones they were kiting and they'd come straight to me. At another point a few adds popped, the ones that gain immunity after you mez them the first time and a bomb went off dropping my runes. I out of habit refreshed immediately, the adds came straight for me (even though already being off tanked.) Yes, runes can draw aggro quite easily. Once a mob is locked down by a warrior tank with his 3000% aggro mod, yeah we probably won't be ganking them anytime soon. But there is the real danger of throwing runes out too early in a fight and having them come right for us. (self and other runes too).
We asked for run 7 and a very fast fade, both of which we could use for pulling. Now if Soe does not want us to be a pulling class then I can understand why we have not gotten those yet. We also asked for Adps for melee, and it does not even have to stack with other classes version or be as good, but it would help us in getting groups. These abilities would help the Enchanter class out a lot, so why is it so hard to give them to us.
Okay gotcha, not on actually-tanked mobs. Like AE heals while adds are spawning, runes can draw unwanted attention. That makes sense, ty.
And the redundancy department strikes again! (Just having fun, Elidroth.) I think Jordis has the right idea. It would have been encouraging to hear something like, "I like this idea, but unfortunately, it would be impossible to encode." Instead, all we get after all our brainstorming is a bunch of AAs that are nothing more than upgrades to existing AAs. It's extremely demoralizing to wrack our brains for what we consider good ideas, and then find that our efforts were for naught. It would have been nice to be given feedback as to why none of our suggestions were implemented. Another thing that's discouraging is to have our ideas (and existing abilities) farmed out like they were going out of style. For instance, three years ago, Yakk had made the brilliant suggestion that our Brimstone-line (small runes with no reagent cost) be tied as a proc to our haste. So, instead of these inconsequential gains that our haste line gets, it would allow those hasted to have a chance to proc a rune upon themselves during melee attacks. And instead, you farmed out our rune-proc idea through itemization. Which effectively says, "Great idea, Enchanters...but too good for the likes of you to have."
This is an interesting point of view. Do you consider Chromatic nukes as something we're "stuck" with, and would you prefer something else? At the time I stopped playing, around three years ago, I considered our class to be privileged to be the only class who got Chromatic nukes and DoTs exclusively (Clerics got Chromatic nukes, too, but they also got Magic nukes thrown in.) We don't have to go through "Well, the mob resisted my fire damage spell three times, but is not resisting my ice-nuke, so I'll use that." We can just nuke, nuke, nuke away, and not worry about what the mob resists or doesn't resist. I consider it very Enchanter-like to have damage spells that adapt themselves to a mob's greatest vulnerability. Returning to Elidroth's comment, another nerf that didn't sit well with us was the nerf to Mesmerisation Mastery, which prevented it from working on our AoE mezzes. And this was right on the heels of Bards getting a AA 30-second PB AoE mezz, which means that Bards can mezz everything around them for five ticks and we can only do the same trick for one. I thought the thinking behind Bards was to give them a myriad of abilities that mimic those of other classes, but to a lesser extent than the master class. And instead they can PB AoE mezz better than we can. Yes, with level 100, we finally get a PB AoE mezz that we can recast in time to keep the mezz up, if need be. It only took two to three years for us to get.
I belive that enchanter nukes are Chromatic resist checks but magic based damage, some one correct me here? reasoning for me beliving this is the raid/mission in breeding grounds were you got the damage focus platforms. Nuking on the magic one cause more damage, thus my conclusion. Also the Lv 100 PBAOE mez by itself doesn't allow you to keep a single mob mezzed even by chain casting it, much less any number of mobs. it has a duration and recast time of 12 seconds. Since it does not have a cast time of 0.0 seconds it is impossible to keep mobs permently mezzed with it alone.
Lonye said: The term I used was inane, not insane. Take a look at the old thread, Enchanter Fail. I started that one when I got back to playing full time at level 92 in RoF. That began when I went LFG in General Chat I got a lot of flack about how I should be charming, and "enchanter fail" because I was simply looking for a group. A few people even went so far as to go out the Dream Feerrott where I joined a lower level group to do CC for them (where they actually needed it) to harass me. I use the animation, while there were others saying that it was a sign of a "bad enchanter." I can charm soloing, moloing, and boxing...but I have always preferred groups and like to use charm as part of a cc strat. I group and I raid full-time with a high end raid guild. Logically that does not add up to someone that has one comfortable way of doing something, and someone that has to be utilizing the majority of spells and abilities in a wide range of circumstances. In fact, I got tired of the BS from people posting on enchanter issues who had one view of what was "good" or "bad" and decided to start participating on a regular basis. I think we must have some very different views of what the word "role" actually means. When I use it, it's in the sense of: : a part that someone or something has in a particular activity or situation. (Merriam-Webster). Linguistically, role indicates something that is defined, in EQ terms, by our class interactions with the other classes. To me the "role" changes with the circumstances: Soloing, whatever I can do that is responsible enough not to cause undue aggravation to other players. Grouping, whatever is necessary to bring about the best results possible depending on the group classes. Raids, support the group which in turn supports a much larger goal with sometimes complex expectations and jobs. Groups and Raids mean that you aren't doing whatever the heck you want to, as in rune the tank on incoming so the mob turns on you for instance.
For a reasonable suggestion how about Enchanters get the equivalent or better of Circle of Power III? It's currently a clickie effect on an all/all with benefit most to berserker's item, Calcified Rage. The one that includes the chance to increase critical hits with melee attacks? 1: Persistent Effect: Circle of Power III Effect Details Raw Spell Data, Lucy Spell View Mana: 0 Casting Time: Instant Recast Time: 0 Fizzle Time: 0 Range: 0 Location: Any Time of Day: Any Interruptable: Yes Target Type: Self Spell Type: Beneficial Category: NPC Source: Live 07/15 Messages Cast on you: A circle of power forms around you. Cast on other: Soandso is surrounded by a circle of power. Game Description Increases your companions' chance for critical hits with spells or melee attacks, as long as they stay inside the area of the aura.
"Ueuill, post: 3111908, member: 410719" I would like magic nukes back along with the Chromatic, just like the Clerics. The situation has improved considerably, particularly as we slowly gained the focus items, and spells to support it. But I remember all too well the sudden announcement that the Clerics and Enchanters were getting Chromatic Nukes (no more magic nukes/dps for the Enchanter.That was around the PoP era, or I at least associate it with grouping in PoP zones. The stated reason was to "encourage" the two classes to group, which aggravated a lot of us that DID group. Suddenly the equipment focus, AA, etc, were useless. Not, "Let's give the enchanters a nice incentive to group, like some big bonus adps, etc, from other classes. Just let's screw up their dps, and charm so they have to start grouping since they're so important to the group dynamic." The second solution was apparently to make us a lot less important. The competition for the first few items that had anything to do with Chromatic were highly contested, and during that period we had to race for raid mobs, before instanced raids and quests were instituted. How long was it before we got the chromatic damage bonus added to tash? Our mez's in PoP were our level, with most of the mobs people wanted cc on being several levels above. Fortunately at that point haste and mana regen were still valuable commodities to trade off. There was the whole Dire charm thing, but only a few mobs in a zone that it could be used on. The Sol Ro's Tower had a couple of mephit models that everyone raced to try and get to before someone else got it. Those mobs were well back at the top of the stairs with see-invis, non-mezzable, non-stunnable, uncharmable mobs between the zone-in and them. Dire charm on a raid and in a lot of groups wasn't that effective, especially if you had people who cast invis/camo habitually. Poof...there goes your Dire Charm mob, with no chance of using it any time soon. We do occasionally get a response that a mob resists the Chromatic nuke or treats it like one of the other classes of spell. The raid, Velishan's Revenge is one of them that I can think of right off. Exactly, that PBAoE is still pretty short term, but much more useful. We can't lock mobs down with it any more than we can with stun. What apparently never occurred to the classes that were upset with our stun/mez lockdown is that while we're doing either we're not doing a heck of a lot of DPS. We did finally get the decent individual stun and the place-able line. You asked about the slowing of four mobs instead of just dps''ing if they died that fast. In current and recent content are a growing number of situations where there's more than four, and even at lower levels hitting hard enough to make our slow useful. The only blues that usually don't seem to need to be slowed because they die pretty quickly are the ones that can be charmed. One might assume that it was a benevolent developer attempt to try and give us a few places that we are specifically needed. I get to do Burn Out, pretty regularly since it was released along with a few of the camps in Argin-Hiz. One wave of mezzable Keepers of Flame that mean two aoe's or one pbaoe, tash, and slow asap, so the group isn't burning discs or aa waiting on you. Next comes the mezzable waves of a tiny avatar of Ro. Tash, debuff and start down the row, even if you have a shaman in the group. We can only use that lame Cripple AA once in the encounter. Then we get the last wave of swords. They need to be slowed...a shaman could slow and heal at the same time. I do not see how it would break the game, or put anyone's nose out of joint if we got an aoe slow and cripple. It would be to everyone's advantage. I think it's also a good thing to keep in mind that it's melee that think it would be a great idea and who are surprised when they find out we don't. (News to them because they usually take a shaman unless they're really desperate for someone to slow mobs).
The irony there is that a bard and an enchanter in the same group can provide a lot of ADPS, at least for spell casters. There would be a bard in every group in a raid if most guilds had their way.
