"For example when our sustained mitigation (built in plus capabilities we can have up all of the time) is sufficient that shield use is unnecessary?" Ummm ... Yes. Absolutely, yes. Sorry if that doesn't jive with your opinion, but yes. Overcap ac and shield block always confer further survivability, so the argument is irrelevant. Our innate mitigation and soaking should be sufficient to offset the healing other classes receive. We have bonuses to this, but it is currently far too low to offset self healing. It should be independent of long refresh disc use and more or less always be there (ie not dependent on what weapon is used). If this means that tanking no longer required a shield - I know that bothers you but most people would rejoice. You are one voice amongst many, and your opinion on the matter has long since been drowned out.
Our innate mitigation and soaking does offset the healing other classes receive, EXCEPT mitigation is not healing. You must have missed the memo. Solo a mob with a Warrior and with a knight. IF the mob does not hit hard enough to outright kill the knight while they've mana in their mana bar they live longer than we do. It's what made knights better soloers than Warriors. We're not going to ever get enough mitigation and/or DPS to solo what Shiftee the Paladin can solo. Pull 40 light blue mobs with a Warrior and an SK. NTtB is not for swarming? Newsflash - we're not going to get enough DPS or mitigation to swarm like an SK. It would take ridiculous amounts. Get hit by a lucky round AND a big AE. Yer at 2K HP's what do?? Ya gunna mitigate the next damage given that your Cleric is dead? Better decide quick - you've got low HP aggro and even Howl and Flash won't save you. Did you hit Fortitude and Staunch? Way to LoH yerself Mr. Pallywarrior. I know it bothers you, but SS is in the game and I expect devs to be somewhat stubborn about Shields are for tanking and the in non-raid content raider/non-raider performance gap. (The EQII producer definitely is giving that attention - go read about it). I think most Warriors are aware that they rolled a tank and that shields are for tanking. Yeah, in content an Enchanter can tank you don't need a shield. But then you don't need a tank either. Basically I'm saying the DW 24/7 crowd and the I want to have so much sustained mitigation everything is easy crowd aren't gunna get what they want by wanting it or making their wanting it known. There up against the thinking of people who do this stuff for a living. I posted a proposal. It's not what I really want but it's what I think devs might give us given what I believe their thinking is.
Does it truly offset it? No not even close. It helps, but when the self healing is that capable - no. Spikes aside, I would doubt that the mitigation warrior bonus on average even matches up to passive sk hp taps and hit counter block buffs. Average over time and not factoring in active input spell healing (spell taps for sks). NTTB permanently available did go a good way to offset it, but that is getting nixed shortly. Quit bringing up solo and swarming. We're warriors, we don't and shouldn't expect to do these. NTTB was never good for swarming - and that's A GOOD thing. Warriors should be balanced around group and raid performance, and that is where we are currently finding ourselves comparatively weak.
Sheesh I started at page 1 of this post and noticed how hot of a topic it became so I shot to the end and the first thing I see is BB and a post on DW shouldn't be 24/7. I'm to tired to go back and see how he hijacked this post. /out
Oh dear. You really don't understand that soloing, moloing, swarming, killing to evolve those pretty raid shoulders. fast experience groups, mid-sized mob killing, and named killing are all activities performed by tanks? You really don't understand that tank parity ought not just knights having parity with Warriors in what Warriors were told we would excell at? One way parity?? Really? We're not going to get an asymmetrical balance in our favor with Warriors much better vs. named mobs and knights the best choice for experience groups - not in group content. I didn't hijack the thread Brosa. The DW fans repeatedly injected their point of view into the conversation.
The warrior community at large does not want swarming, soloing, or self healing. That's just you ... You should have just re-rolled a knight a decade ago. The envy is obvious. Quit trying to make us something we're not and don't want to be.
The Warrior community is very interested in being a reasonably equal choice in fast experience groups to knights rather than the #3 choice. You are incorrect sir. I'd point out that we were also interested in being competitive in LDoNs when it was obvious our lack of at-will at-range aggro disadvantaged us. The Warrior community gladly accepted Clerical mercs. Many of us had soloed prior to them being put into the game using a Steadfast Servant, We knew full well what its like to play with a full tanking toolset instead of the half toolset we were limited to. The Warrior community eagerly buys heal and buff potions from the potion vendors. Heck, everybody buys the res tokens from the Loyalty vendor - who are you kidding? Furthermore Stoneoak Tower Shield with it's 1K healing burst "proc" - a lot of Warriors are drooling over that. I think we want to be tanks (Tank = aggro + survivability. Survivability = mitigation + avoidance + combat self heals) and not Rangers.
You are correct in that we want to be a reasonably equal choice. Where virtually everybody disagrees with you is in the "how". You want to make us more "knightly". I want to make us more "warriorly". Reading through what's left of the TSW community, few if any agree with your position. Most, on the flip side, despise and disagree with your vision and input. We don't want self heals. We don't want to solo. We don't want to swarm. We don't want to be stuck permanently in one weapon configuration - we want choice with obvious benefits/drawbacks. We want to get back to our roots: the undisputed kings of mitigation across a wide spectrum of configurations. Today's eq really does need to have all 3 tanks viable. Knight mitigation and self healing should be just as viable as warrior tanking (groups, named, raids). Warriors, though should have an equal footing in our own right. Since we do not and will not be healing ourselves - that brings us right back to incoming damage and further decreasing it to compensate.
We have accepted self heals - we buy them in stacks of 20. We asked for OOC regen. We likes Staunch. That Stoneoak Tower Shield with it's 1K healing burst "proc" - dyno-mite. We understand that back to our no aggro abilities, no aggro augs, etc: 1. A not going to happen. 2. Would be pretty awful if it did. Truth be told I think group content Tanks would be pretty pumped to see a 250AC 2500/2500/2500 Proc: Healing Burst VIII shield put in group content along with a 50AC shield only aug. Especially if it had an EoA focus effect. Given "Thanks to their heavy armor and unheard of stamina..." (we really need a regen wounds ability driven by endurance ala Connor MacLeod - who's not a Paladin btw - after all, we're immortal) I'm sure people understood what a tank was and wanted to be one. We can do the right thing for the right reasons or as was the case with NTtB the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. Our sustained mitigation belongs on gear and really there never was a mitigatin issue (although that shield would be greatly appreciated) - we simply can't self-rescue from low HP's and knights can. That advantage shows up in a broad range of content and anything resembling reasonable mitigation and/or DPS can not give Warriors parity by other means.
Correction: You buy self heals in stacks of 20. I don't bother. I don't buy them. I don't use them. The only heal potions I have ever bought are the weaksauce heal over time, and I can count on 3 fingers the number of times I have found a good use for them. They are weak/terrible. They have lockout/re-use timers. They are irrelevant. If my healer can't keep me up, that's their failure - not mine. If my class can't function, that's developer failure, not mine. Thankfully, despite a woefully, pitifully underpowered class - I thrive playing the warrior. I play on test, so I am feeling the pain of the NTTB changes. It sucks. It is noticable. Despite how much it sucks, I'm still managing to get by without significant problems, but I'm also geared to the teeth from a groupers standpoint. I'm now overgeared for the content. I'm getting by right now with the nerfed NTTB, it just sucks to see how much better (hugely better) my similarly group geared SK handles content. My warrior's gear is now actually better than my SKs and all relevant aa are done. Sucks, but that's life.
Dangit, I spit beer out my nose when I read Babbleblade VS the Duel Wieldiers.... ./em in his best Achmed the Arab voice " I KEEEEL YOU ALLL!!!"
NTtB was a boon for raid Warriors given harder hitting mobs. It would still be a boon, but not earth shattering, with a 4 minute duration and 7 minute refresh. I think most Warriors, while being silent on the subject, understand that it's detrimental negating ability was not going to stand. NTtB was a boon for non-raid Warriors facing named mobs. It can be used after FS or in conjunction with it. It would still be a boon, but not earth shattering, with a 4 minute duration and 7 minute refresh. NTtB was ostensibly requested to offset knight combat self-healing advantages. In that area it's an abject failure. In particular it fails vs. large numbers of light blue experience mobs. IF non-raiders were as unconcerned about normal and AA experience as many raiders are this would not be an issue. But that is not at all the case. Those that proposed this, those that favor it, and the dev that developed it all dimiss this lack with, "It's not supposed to be able to do that. In fact it was tuned so that could not be done." That's simply honeying lemon juice and calling it lemonade. It also fails in the self-rescue department. Surely you've had a Cleric silenced, dead, mezzed, charmed, trapped in a crystal, with you in dire straits. I have. If I'm lucky, a Cleric clicks DA and a tank (I swear it's a tank - it holds a pointy weapon and a shield) does the biggest heal in the game by casting group heal. Or I gulp as many as 20 weak/less than 1/4 of a hit from a mob healing potions per raid. It's an insulting state of affairs to be so disadvantaged and have Warriors request a half of a fix. I can't imagine how I'd feel if I was a non-raider and watching another tank class running fast experience groups solely because they had combat self-healing when my class was saddled with NTtB. I think if some Warriors have an issue with Putting a Lore Potion of Healing (recover 5000HP's) on the potion vendor Increasing Warrior HP regeneration so our "unheard of stamina" means something trading endurance for HP's given changes to NTtB that definitely will happen and it results in our ending up with abilities that do not more fully address a disadvantage it's their lack of insight and not my supposed affection for the unreasonable.
stick to the topic at hand please i dont read BB posts, i dont think many do... ignore and move on... as for the topic... WHERE THE HELL IS THE GD DEV RESPONCE
Not sure how you consistently view anyone who doesn't agree with your particular stance on weapon setups as "I want DW 24/7" but it's gotta stop...it's ridiculous. I've said time and time again I'd rather not "dw 24/7" and yet, here my opinions are -- marginalized by BB into "I love DW" (do you even read them or do you just automatically make that assumption?). Recognizing that having so much AC that it's irrelevant in group content whether you use a shield or not and lobbying to make defensive changes to DW are two entirely different concepts. I fall into the former, I've never once asserted that DW be a defensive stance and I likely never will -- all I've stated is that it should probably do more damage than SB (I prefer 2h personally). If it happens that I can face-roll group content with a dps stance due to my ridiculously high ac (obtained via RAID gear) then so be it, that is a perk of raiding enough to acquire said gear. Ask knights, monks, rangers, really any melee class about this. To disagree and say it should be otherwise is to call for widespread nerfs to ALL classes that can/will tank group content in raid gear, I'm sure these guys would be pleased to know what you're lobbying for. Now, on to the topic at hand here. Crazy HP regen is not completely far-fetched and as far as warrior class description goes, it does fit. It is not a perfect solution but it's certainly not terrible either. I won't hold onto any delusions about the warrior class and I certainly am not too proud to admit that we could use some help, be it in the self-healing or the mitigation department --- something has to be done. As I said earlier, at this point in the game I would take nearly anything. As for the Stone-Oak shield, the healing proc is almost completely irrelevant to a warrior (it can't crit, I don't get exceptional heals, etc, it's just..1k), I drooled over and bid on that shield (it was pricy) because it had/has the highest AC available for that slot. I can tell you that I would never rely on the laughably small heal proc on it to stay alive and really I consider it a "bonus" stat.
My sk has the xorbb group shield with a heal proc on it (750 iirc). It's effect is about as potent as a newborn baby's fart in a strong breeze. It's not really noticeable.
mourn the lost of the one decent ability warriors had to offset dps ... this went live with hates rising
Yes, I play a Ranger, yet I also feel badly for the Warrior class. The tank classes don't need any nerfs. -Rat
Warrior damage will be all over the place in group content, spiking much higher than previous because of inconsistent/unsustainable timers on our defensive abilities. Which of these would you want to heal?
cant friggin believe they pushed this through.. they have had over a week to make a post about it explaining the reasoning... but clearly they have adopted the avoidance technique of CS.
