I personally, use DW in my grps .. I never have issue's with dps , agro .. or anything. Matter of fact even in T3 zones, I DW .. not that I need to for agro mind you. But at our current level, I find it funny that anyone has any issues what so ever when it comes to agro or dps. We are not a dps type, so complaining about our Dps .. is relative .. to a turtle complaining its the slowest in the race .. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE ... As far as tanking grp challenging content, if your an end game raiding tank an geared as such, there should not BE CHALLANGING CONTENT .. I pull on whulfgar , 8-16 mobs at a time in chapterhouse .. disc the #$%^ outta it .. some Crowd control and THATS .. a lil challenging if the CCer is not on top of their game outside of this .. grp content is not all that challenging. Least wise not in my honest opinion.
. Why sir, if we are not a DPS type, would you tank DWing? Surely you realize that given we are a tank type, properly dressed for the party is using a shield. It's not as if (with the DPS of the various weapon setups properly adjusted) when we are tanking we are a DPS-type, right? You tank with your pants off just because your can? Well then sir, you'll obviously forego a shield while "tanking" 6-18 mobs (provided SOE doesn't put EoA on shields). Kindly remember that thus far Elidroth has responded to requests to provide shield benefits by other means when DWing with DW is not for tanking. And he's stated he'd like to have DW [BA: and I think 2H) do more damage than S&B when we are not the tank and not tanking. If you don't need shield benefits when DWing I fail to see why you'd have any issue. I personally don't tank 18 mobs every pull and I've been know to molo RoF named. I wear my plate greaves AND use my shield which provides much more protection than those greaves ever thought of providing. Then again, I'm a tank. Oh and I'm an endgame raider too, and I gots my 14 year pin as well. (I look around and commonly see Warriors tanking in S&B guy. Admittedly part of the reason is we are DPSing too well compared to DW in that setup, but as you note - we're not a DPS class - and frankly if S&B was 10% less DPS than DW when we are not tanking most of us STILL would S&B almost all of the time when we were tanking. It took ~30% loss of aggro and ~30% less DPS to put S&B in the dumpster where it didn't belong and for us to DW nearly 24/7).
Because I can. And in the yrs of my play time in game, I've never been confused for a DPS .. regardless of the situation. What game are you playing, that Warrior's are considered a DPS class because clearly its not Everquest. If you have issues with low AC, and need the shield .. in order to tank grp level content Battle, then I feel sorry for you. I on the other hand, am able to hold agro on any number of my pulls .. with DW'ing and as such It is one of the main reasons as to my DW'ing in grp content. I've also noticed that you like to beat a dead horse .. and have lost touch with all reality when it comes to our class. If you honestly feel that absolutely each an every encounter we have needs to be a S/B situation .. you know next to nothing bout the class you claim to be a part of. The fact that we are forced into (currently) a sword an board cookie cutter off shoot of the knights .. does not mean anything other then we are being forced into that situation. And you looking around seeing it is a direct reflection based upon being forced into it, rather then being given the option of .. DW'ing , 2handers , or S/B .. And if all things were given a fair shake .. each had its own shine .. and dullness .. I guarantee you that 90%+ would be DW'ing .. or 2 hander'ing it up over the S/B .. forced cookie cutter we have now.
You can and you even claim you do, all the time - so where is your problem? S&B is for tanking (the factoid that you can tank holding a flower rather than a sword is immaterial. And no, flowers are not entitled to a "fair shake" - not in tanking they aren't. Flowers are not for tanking.) DW and 2H is for DPS (but our 1Hdr used with a shield is transformed by skill into a shield appropriate arming sword.) and Bow/thrown objects are for ranged DPS Says the man DWing dead horse bats.
How's that cut and pasting going for you? Seriously, every single person here, with you as the exception knows the FACT (or factoid, hur hur hur), that S&B is superior DPS to DW and 2H. Whulf does it for fun. I don't know how you can remain so willfully ignorant of this fact. So why is a defensive ("S&B is for tanking!!!!" as you said) form also holding superior offense?
How's that cut and paste going for you and Whulfgar? Seriously, almost every Warrior understands that S&B is for tanking and that we can't do pathetic DPS whild tanking. Trying to drum up enthusiasm for DW returning to its previous near 24/7 role one poster created a poll on TSW, How that go? 22 prefering DW and 13 S&B (apparently 2H is chopped liver). On TSW, the premier non-SOE Warrior forum, 35 responses. Not that SOE should pay attention to polls - some things are so intuitively obvious (like classes in the Tank Archetype tanking while using a shield) to do otherwise flies in the face of rationality. And in SOE's forums numerous Warriors posting that S&B for tanking makes sense. And an SOE developer stating DW is not for tanking. Elidroth would like to have DW (and I suspect 2H) do more damage when we are not tanking than S&B does when we are not tanking. Which, if reasonable S&B DPS augmented by ripos, damage shields, etc. is maintained, will get us to S&B for tanking (our usual role) and DW/2H for when we are not tanking. Putting EoA only on shields would enforce (and given mindless oppositi0on by some, enforcement does seem to me to be in order) those roles. Or don't you and Wulffgar, etc. mean it when you say pluses and minuses for every setup? Didn't think so. S&B is for tanking. Find a new horse to kick.
Gee BB Everyone else so far has said they expect there to be tradeoffs with each set so THERE WOULDN'T be one perfect set that does DPS, AGRO and SUVIVABILITY well. YOU are the one arguing that S&B is fine and all we need, even though right now it's trapping us into S&B or nerf 2/3 the main catagories we need. Yes there are people who can handle current content with the nerfs. In a more balanced idea it would be S&B -- DPS, - Agro, BEST Survivability DW Baseline DPS, BEST Agro, average Survivability 2H BEST DPS, - Agro, -- Survivability But right now with all the things that modify only S&B it's Best over DPS, Agro, and Survivability. This to me is a problem that should be fixed.
Gee Damoncord, what several people have said, in contrast to your claims, is that they expect DW to be our usual TANKING setup for when doing exp. Read the posts above yours again. They expect DW to provide BEST DPS (it usually has despite your post), BEST aggro, and enough survivability to tank multiple experience mobs at a time. In a balanced world, a bow would be for ranged DPS - not all weapon setups are useful in all roles. DW and 2H would be for DPSing when we are not the tank - not all weapon setups are useful in all roles. and S&B would be for tanking and DPSing while tanking. Of course we should (when geared properly to tank) have great survival, great aggro, AND do Warrior typical DPS while tanking. Our class description never said Warriors will have the unmatched ability to survive OR be able to make themselves the focus of attacks keeping frailer players safe from harm. Where, I might ask, did you ever get the idea we were an OR class when it came to tanking? Of course when we are not tanking we and using DW or 2H we should do Warrior typical DPS with four advantages: 1. Not the best survivability is moot. a. It doesn't matter if we take a hit to survivability since we are not tanking. DW and 2H are not for tanking. b. In fact we'll be using offensive discs rather than defensive discs. Not one of the situation distorters has admitted that when we really turtle up we're using defensive discs. They'd lead people to believe S&B is maximum survivability and maximum DPS mode which is not the truth. 2. Not the best aggro is moot. When DPSing with a 2Hdr or using DW we don't want aggro. Our loss of survivability should be (but isn't) so great that we're plate Rangers. We shouldn't want to get hit, further we shouldn't want to steal aggro. 3. Our tanking weapon should have an aggro aug and aggro procs. We're free to use a DMG aug and DD procs on our offensive/not able to tank with them DPS weapons. 4. We're free to use offensive discs - we're not tanking. I agree, S&B's intrusion into the DW and 2H DPSing while we are not the tank role needs fixing. AND so does DW and 2H intrusion into S&B's tanking (survival AND aggro AND and while tanking DPS) role. Putting EoA only on shields in the future (and perhaps something like a large overcap Damage Shield) will fix that. (The falsity of that old piece of junk "tradeoff" argument was thoroughly exposed in the Making Shields More Practical for Warriors thread posted years ago. It's surprising anyone would repeat it given that the survivability OR aggro argument fell on it's face a decade ago.)
When has anyone said anything remotely resembling that? I think every single post in this thread, TSW's threads, the various threads on these forums that we're all aware DW is not for tanking challenging content. However, if your argument is that any mob that grants experience points is challenging content, well, the game is broken, since my mage tanks CoB (not the pet, the mage) using a two-handed weapon and having zero ranks of staff block. I've asked you repeatedly to define what you consider "challenging" content, as the rest of us typically consider named and raid targets as challenging content. What's your definition? Do you even have one? Then you're maintaining that in order for us to do DPS while dual wielding or using a two-hander, we have to use our offensive discs? Yes, lets use our DPS discs to do more DPS than our DEFENSIVE form. Does that seriously make sense to you?
I'm not going to provide a link since polls are (and should be) verbotten. but on "another website": "Tank poll, since it's not been done yet... When tanking challenging content (group OR raid) as a warrior, would you prefer: Dual weilding 22 Sword + shield 13 2h of some sort 0" Strike 1 1. Did Elidroth say DW is for tanking content that isn't challenging or did he say DW is not for tanking? I believe he was pretty clear. HOWEVER if people want to argue DW and 2H should situationally intrude on S&B's tanking role then I'd expect them to accept S&B situationally intruding on DW and 2H's DPS role. 2. I was asked and I answered. I would define challenging content as content where the other two tanks in our archetype and progression commonly use shields. That is not group named mobs and raid boss mobs only despite arguments to the contrary. Devs can observe tanks in action. Strike 2 Did I say that or like the two instances above did you pull that horribad argument out of a hat? People are pretending that we use one weapon and a shield and and are all set to do out best DPS, best aggro, and best defensive at the same time. I (despite maintaining a DW and a 2H DPS setup which I'm not using but hope to use - but not tanking, never tanking, DW and 2H is not for tanking) - have an aggro augged aggro weapon that I use with a shield and DEFENSIVE discs when mobs hit harder I have a DMG augged damage weapon that I use with a shield (and a lot of damage shields) and OFFENSIVE discs when I am fighting multiple experience mobs and am DPSing in raids. This is NOT the setup that I use above. I have another DMG augged damage weapon I hope to DW when I'm not tanking and I'm only DPSing. I have a DMG augged 2H I hope to use in some situations when I'm not tanking and am only DPSing. I also have a silken whip of ensnaring, the War Machine slow weapon, and a few other uti,lity weapons I use situationally. It's an intentional flat out distortion to suggest one weapon and a shield meets all my needs. I'll welcome (and I'm ready for it) improvements to DW and 2H DPS used when not tanking (the only time they should be useful). And I fully expect Warriors to use shields as frequently as the other two classes in the Tank Archetype do. As I point out in my opening paragraphs that is not at all the aim of a small handful of DW 24/7 favorers. 3 Given you don't accept official decisions arrived at after due consideration, deny things written in black and white, erect strawman arguments, AND favor an outcome that will not happen, Ima save my breath henceforth. Let me know if you see changes in just released T4 that put S&B back in the dumpster (you won't).
1. SOE doesn't listen to their own polls so of course they won't listen to anyone else's. 2. Elidroth has shown himself often to be completely out of touch with the actual game or at least large parts of it, so his opinion will stand as a rule because he is a dev and their opinions, rather than fact, are how they make rules, not because he knows any better. 3. You don't have a leg to stand on when making the embarrassing and laughable argument to stop beating a dead horse or ridiculing anyone for copy and pasting. There is not now, nor has there ever been, anyone who repeats themselves more often than you on these boards.
There's your typical black and white interpretation. Guess my mage is a tank too, since he can tank current content even, without a shield. Haven't tried a named yet, might need to pop a second merc for that. The other two tanks only have two options, 2HS (pure DPS), S&B. DW is a 3rd option that isn't comparable to the knight classes as it's its own separate category. You really want me to go back a few pages and pull your quote on that? No one's pretending, I think everyone here except you realizes that this is truth, not the fictional world you lives in. Think bragging about your weapon arsenal is a valid argument? You've got a DW set that you hope to use (but don't) and two utility weapons that you can switch out your primary weapon for. Then stop arguing against viability of those two weapon forms. There's your classic attempt to discredit everyone here by saying we're DW24/7'ers. Here, let me spell it out for you: 1) Named, Raid targets, S&B required 2) Trash for current content, DW acceptable for tanking, but will sacrifice some (not all) survivability. 3) Sacrifice all defense for increased DPS. Not advisable for current content, but hey, it's a free world. Also engaging multiple trivial targets (swarming SoF zones for example). I've consistently maintained this stance since the beginning of this thread, as have MANY others in this thread. That is not DW24/7, that's called having the right tools for the right job. I don't accept your rigid interpretation of official decisions, no. It would be great for Elidroth or another dev to reply with their thoughts in this thread, but honestly, if I was them, I wouldn't either. Were I them, I'd read the thread, look at the popular opinion, look at the arguments presented, and consider the information on their own, more than likely running their own tests with their own test characters. If the results of their information aggregation is consistent with that which is presented, then begins the decision making process of how to address the issue. Elidroth stated in that exact same chat log that you hold as scripture that he isn't sure how to address the problem yet, but he's thinking about it. Second, how do you think change actually happens, in any system? Sit back, listening to official decisions and just going with the flow? Or do you attempt to influence change by challenging the official decision? Check out the beta forums, it's ripe with people unhappy with the "official" decisions, and guess what? Change happened in multiple areas. How would that have gone if everyone just sat back and say "Hey, cool, that's what you guys wanna do? Sure, we'll accept it!" We'd have the new AE rez spells with a 5 minute wait time on raids. How about the time in UF when warriors pushed for shield viability against the grain of the "official decision?" You'd still be DW'ing 24/7 as you seem to hate, had it not been for people going against the "official decision."
I'm not sure why you continue arguing with him. Nothing sinks in. He is going to continue reposting the same crap he always does and he has labeled it as any mob that give experience is "challenging content" to him. He wants it so only warriors can tank for a group one mob at a time. If said tank dies he feels the group should wipe. His entire thought process is antiquated. Challenging content is determined by what you can and cannot do i.e. if you need a shield to tank you use it, if you don't need to use it then it really isn't challenging now is it. Sword and board is fine against actual challenging content and duel wield or two-hander is fine when you are not facing challenging content. It isn't defined by you Babbleblade. What is challenging is determined by what that individual player can do. Content being current does not always equal a challenge SoD proved that. In reality this thread should probably be locked. The debate has pretty much boiled down to bickering.
Warriors are so entertaining. Watching you folks argue is like watching a couple of rams fighting over a female. Actually though, I don't see where BB is making any big error. S&B for tanking. DW and 2H for warrior typical dps. They could differentiate DW and 2H by putting effects on 2H that you can't get on 1H weapons. For instance 2H weapons might proc innate stuns, cripples, snares, or slows etc. while DW weapons proc other stuff like DPS. I don't think it is unreasonable to be able to tank light blues with DW or 2H. Maybe even blues and up to your own level. It doesn't seem out of the ordinary that a skilled warrior need not a shield to kill a foe that is his own level. Maybe it would be time to whip it out though if you were fighting multiple white con mobs though. For the average geared player I mean and when the game starts to get harder of course. At level 65 a shield hardly seems to matter much. I assume it becomes the difference between life and death at some point though. Right?
RIght now my warrior is lvl 100 with about 4k AA's, wearing a mix of RoF T1-T3 group gear. Yesterday, just for fun while doing Kael partisan tasks, I put my shield away and started dual wielding T2 RoF weapons, and all of the sudden, my warrior went from being sustained via cleric merc, to my shaman having to throw in occasional spot heals. Granted, that's not a largely accurate parse, it made a visual difference in tankability vs content that was level appropriate (arguably, seeing how T1 RoF should be doable with RoF T1 gear around lvl 96-97). These were trash mob, blue cons. Agro isn't even a problem or consideration anymore. I usually run with two wizzy mercs on burn all the time, and I never lose agro, regardless of the weapon setup I'm using (DW, S&B, 2H). RIght now the debate is about DPS vs Survivability.
Here's and idea BB when you're intending to respond to multiple people try making multiple posts so you're not as confusing. This is the classic is/ought problem I'm saying what ought to be, IE there be benifits/drawbacks to each set. What IS right now is S&B trumps the other 2 in all 3 catagories. And here you go from your normal S&B for Challenging Content, which at least I agree with, to ONLY S&B for tanking which no one agrees with you on. I'm not discussing tanking there I'm discussing DPS. In a DPS role when someone else is tanking S&B has NO right to be better dps than either of the DPS weapon sets. In tanking YES S&B should be best but you're giving up that off hand sword or the giant 2hander for the shield so any resonable person would agree you should do less DPS when using a shield. Point of fact you can use those offensive discs anytime you want, just give up FS for a short time. Second fact, S&B's Damage boost is still boosted by Offensive Disc, so it does even more damage than the DPS sets. It's called a tradeoff, if something is to be better and still keep everything else meaningful then it has to be worse in other areas. I dunno about you but when I'm under fort and using Rage of Rallos I DW for more swing agro and a second agro weapon's inate proc to trigger each round. And your point is? You can aug any weapon to do agro/DPS that doesn't mean they will be optimal for that situation. Didn't you post earlier you were able to do signifigantly more DPS with Chapterhouse Standard the number 2 agro sword Prior to T3's release while maintaining a nice amount of agro? You're free to use offensive discs at any time you're not needing to be tanking at a moment's notice or you're in non challenging content so the damage boost the mob gets is meaningless. Great idea screw all options of alternatives, to further your personal agenda that we should never have been given DW. DW historically was what set Warriors apart from knights. Which would you want to roll, a Paladin IE Warrior with cleric spells, Shadowknight Warrior with Necro Spells, or a Warrior that has nothing the other 2 don't have? Right now Knights have been slowly yet steadily picking up more of the abilities that set us apart from them, DW is one of the few that remain, and honestly they don't want it since they have their superior ratios since they CAN'T DW. Junk to insist that we should have options other than S&B 24/7/365 you're trying to shove down our throats? I'm saying we should have options. S&B -- DPS, - Agro, BEST Survivability - BEST FOR TANKING CHALLENGING CONTENT DW Baseline DPS, BEST Agro, average Survivability - Standard 2H BEST DPS, - Agro, -- Survivability - BEST DPS Does this give DW a Role? Yes tanking in non challenging content where you are killing quickly and want more swing agro. OR doing more DPS while being ready to change to S&B to tank for your turn. Does S&B Have a Role? YES TANKING CHALLENGING CONTENT NOT DPSing. Does 2Hander Have a role? DPS (Which honestly needs a MASSIVE boost.) I'm a warrior the only tank who can DW, why should I not have a legitamate role for it?
When devs fix things you will - DW is for DPS. DW is not for tanking. None of the DWers in the game are tanks. DW is not a tanking setup. At most times (not always) DW has been the highest DPS output setup for those that can use it. Does S&B have a role? Yes, S&B is for tanking and when thanking Warriors should do very Warrior appropriate DPS. That's not a butter knife in our mainhand, its a primary weapon transformed by skill into an "arming sword" the offensive part of the offensive AND defensive setup heavy plate tanks used when wreacking havoc. When tanking we are survivability AND aggro AND appropriate DPS. When not tanking we're a poor version of a ranjur. In looking at what other people think - it appears most understand S&B is for tanking. There no huge outcry (33 poll respondents, really??) that SOE should ignore even if there was one. Horses have four legs/heavy plate tanks use S&B. Putting EoA only on shields in the future (and perhaps something like a large overcap Damage Shield) will fix things. It's not in T4, but there' hope for the new expansion.
Wow, so you do believe that S&B should do superior DPS to 2H and DW. That's just..... Wow.... I think everyone understands that, however the definition of "tanking" differs from yours. Why? Agro isn't an issue with or without EoA. If you're having problems holding agro without EoA, I feel bad for you.
Warriors are. It works fine as a tanking setup. It doesn't please the min/max crowd, but it does the job just fine. Stop ruining my class, and go away.
