#UniteThePVPPlayers: Movement - Immunity and Farming

On one hand I'm obsessive, and on the other I never read what you write.. go figure.

If you read what I wrote before:

I guess you wouldn't even feel the need to write that.

Also, I thought having your panties in a bunch was the only way to go..

Oddly enough, I believe we're making progress. It's more than my tiny brain can fully comprehend at the moment but this is good stuff.

Please keep arguing the points, but please keep it civil. I'd ask that you doubly read each response first before rebutting. Passions are getting a little too quick

Except what you said there has nothing to do with this, which is what I was addressing & which is what I quoted:

Counters have not had "too much of a reward" given to them for a long time now. The immunity is required to survive in group games within arenas and considering the meta for 4s/5s revolved around focusing the DPS to attempt to reduce the damage they dealt, counters were needed as shield kiting/kiting in general is not an effective tactic for a DPS because you won't be stressing the opponent's healers and therefore their power (among various other reasons).

Just so we both get this straight.. I was giving him my opinion and referring it to how I believe it should be based on past experience.

And you answered it as if I was talking about it being too much of a reward in the games current state (Which we both agree is a mess, and not even worth playing).

So if you're quoting me about something I'm not even talking about, and then blaming me that I'm talking about something "That has nothing to do with it", who exactly is "at fault" here?

Tho I admit, I should've added "Too much reward when the game is actually balanced".

Well if it isn't what you're talking about, then don't make a statement like "immunity is too much of a reward" because it isn't. It's like me saying Steel is overpowered, then saying that wasn't what I was talking about I was referring to when DoTs were how they used to be

I will make that statement because it's true, when DPS is actually balanced out, there's no need for that cover-up system, it is over rewarding.

Steel really was OP, thank you for that btw.

Except it isn't in the current system which is what you stated, regardless of intent. At no point did you "state" when damage is balanced out. That's your mistake, not mine

^

You are absolutely right.

The only cheese thing in dcuo right now are powers that blockbrake(counter),the immunity idea is golden and it should stay the way it is.
As clutch sayed its a reward that is key in groups,speacially promoting good players vs spam players(2vs1),
if ur partner dies and u are better player u will still win becouse u farm immunity and bait etc...
stop promoting spam in dcuo,suggesting immunity is too much of a reward.

Is immunity granted in a fair and consistent way? Consider both the 1v1 and the XvX scenarios

Yes. It works consistently and is in general bug-free.

Is immunity strength and duration appropriate for fostering a competitive PVP system?

Yes. There was at one point a competitive PvP scene that involved immunity.

What are the pros and cons of the different ways immunity is granted? Should some grant methods be removed?

Honestly, there are many pros to immunity. However, I do not like it in its current implementation. I've seen all the typical back and forth arguments. I've had years to see and think about it, and I've played nearly uninterrupted since 2011 at a competitive level.

Over the years I have noticed that avid PvPers today just have very little concept of what PvP was like without immunity. It's a completely alien concept to them. And this fact alone is a strong argument for just keeping the mechanic as is TBH.

However, I believe that immunity is ultimately unhealthy and counter-productive towards maintaining a large PvP population. I hope people will be open-minded about my reasoning for that.

I'll start by saying that immunity is, by its very nature, a selfish mechanic. It is a defensive mechanic that increases your survivability and only yours. It makes you more self-sufficient, and it rewards those who get as many counters as possible even if it means your teammates will get fewer counters. People who have only played under this system are conditioned to think this way. I'll use the following scenarios as evidence for this:

(1) Every immunity argument starts with the 2v1 discussion like clockwork. The goal for most PvPers now is to achieve a level of proficiency where they can win 2v1's. The theoretical "perfect" modern PvPer is someone who can overcome any number of opponents, and the only current impediment to that ideal is all this crazy AM and weapon damage that blows through immunity shields too quickly.

It's an admirable ideal. But PvP isn't balanced around 2v1. Period.

(2) Currently, the best way to gear up and learn PvP is to pair-up with someone around your skill level (or a little bit better) and queue for 2s. This lets you learn from each other while not holding the other back too much. People naturally prefer to play with those who are as good as (or better than) themselves. Playing with lesser skilled people results in them giving up too much immunity, which prevents YOU from doing damage. Essentially, you are punished for playing with lesser skilled people because opponents farm immunity off them.

To PvP in the past, people naturally grouped up to (a) not be outnumbered, (b) gain the benefits of the RPS system, and (c) have someone protect you when you were hardstunned (they were completely unbreakable in the past). The skill level of those you grouped with did not matter.. or at least it didn't matter in the way modern PvPers think. Your teammates did not need to worry about giving away immunity; they needed to worry about healing you, giving you power, cleansing you, and situational awareness to retreat from bad spots.

If that sounds a lot like PvE, you'd be right. There were a LOT more PvEers willing to PvP back then. They didn't feel useless (and there were only 2 sets of earned PvP gear with no mods).. but the important part was they didn't feel useless.

8v8s were possibly the most popular PvP queue back then, whereas 2v2s are the most popular now.

(3) A big part of PvP now is fitting as much damage after a knockdown as possible. You'll see people call this counter punishment, guaranteed followup, etc. For example, with Catwoman you can fit this combo:

Blockbreak (clip) #2 (clip) #4 (clip) #3, melee tap hold (clip) #5.

If that sounds like one too many clips you'd be right. It's only possible through an exploit, but it's awesome damage to behold. One counter is enough to take half the life of an opponent, but only if you can force them to waste their breakout trinket first. This is a fun bit of strategy and execution, but it also places an extremely high importance on breakout trinkets, breakout powers, and particular weapons with good counter punishment.

This is part of why Steel at one point was considered OP; his shield was usable while controlled (plus he had crazy dots). Then came Circe who could flat out escape all counter punishment. Then came Shazam, then Black Adam, and who knows what else.

Obviously, the devs don't see breakout powers the same way we do. When I asked them why healer classes were the only DPS in the game with no breakout power their response was, "why do healers need to break out?" My response? Facepalm.

Part of this disconnect is a result of how counters used to work. As I said, you could not break out of "hardstuns" from counters whatsoever, but they were also much shorter in duration. It was not possible to fit more than a 1 tap hold or 2 tap hold with some weapons. The actual counter was the punishment; not the followup. Therefore, we didn't need breakout powers or even breakout trinkets. They were simply nice to prevent yourself from being CCed out of combos.

Modern PvPers feel like they need immunity and long hardstuns so they can guarantee their followup damage. Otherwise it would take too long to kill someone. But if you feel that you NEED a guaranteed followup, it just means that the counter itself isn't doing enough damage on its own.

In the 4 years I have been playing this game, I know of only TWO times that the counter damage formula was updated despite the fact that NON-counter sources of damage are increasing all the time.

In short, if you boosted counter damage and brought back true hardstuns you wouldn't need guaranteed followups or immunity. Yes, someone may counter you after you BB someone, but this game isn't built around 2v1. You got your damage in, and that is your reward.

In the past, I would save my shields to protect myself after I landed a BB.. even if someone lunged me the shield would absorb that damage. We managed personal shield use instead of breakout trinkets/powers in the past.

If farming should remain in PVP, are there adjustments to be made that would prohibit abuse, "cheese" or any anti-competitive behavior?

The TL;DR of it is immunity promotes a certain kind of skill, but it is selfish in nature. Only the best PvPers will play with the best PvPers; it is survival of the fittest. This promotes a highly skilled, yet very small community and the mindset of most modern PvPers reflects this.

Imagine instead if we made immunity team-oriented in nature. What if your counters gave immunity to all your teammates but NOT you?

What if counters healed your teammates, or gave them power, or gave them CC immunity while you only got the damage? It might foster an entirely different kind of PvP community.

Can't agree with immunity for groups,selfish immunity is the best way to make all players practice skill instead of depending on teamates

I've made my opinions on the matter loud and clear. I confess to having little to no experience in PvP prior to immunity. I tried a few rounds and realized that everyone was right, HL reigned supreme and I didn't really bother until after I maxed t4 PvE. Idk what PvP exactly is prior to immunity, I just know what it's not and that's good enough for me.

Without parsing through your posting history, I'm not clear on your position. Are you for or against immunity?

Firmly against.

I agree with what others said, I think people are holding onto immunity because it's what they're used to in the same way the opposite side is viewing pvp without immunity with nostalgia.

Either way pvp can still happen we just have to learn to adjust

Did u see the posts from test server when they removed immunity?
Double counters,powers that had brakeouts had advantage over others and ofc spam spam spam.
The only thing making this game still a little competitive is immunity!!!
The ones saying it was better without it are the ones that could never counter,only press 1234 to win.
I dont even understand why this thread is here Chillcat,i thought we all agreed that immunity should stay.

See, most PvPers today just have no idea what combat was like without immunity. They can only guess at it based on how things work NOW, which causes them to freak out for no reason.. then accuse players from that time of having no skill. It's the height of arrogance.

There is no nostalgia or rose-tinted glasses in my estimation of PvP before and after immunity.

Immunity encourages you to watch out only for yourself. It makes you more self-sufficient so you don't have to rely on a team as much. In fact, it makes you actively avoid grouping with certain individuals who would get farmed. PvP has become steadily more isolated and exclusive as a result.

Yesturday a friend crashed in 2v2 and i soloed both players.
After the match i recived nonstop pms,how did i do that,what did i do,can i teach them?.
Both players allmost max cr pve and max pvp gear!!!!
This is what players we have now,players that dont even know there is a counter system in the game,players that asked how to play and all they were told is to stay far and press ranged atacks and 1234.
The only ones to blame here are the devs for promoting this gameplay in pve.
There is no single instance that is based on counters,not 1. All instances require u to do is 1234 ranged atacks.
How do u want pvp opinions,when 90% of the server only do pve.
How do u expect them to learn if pve teaches nothing about the counter system.
All pve gives them is 9999 mil hp bosses with 9999 mil dmg,that is not content that should exist in dcuo.
Every other game is based on its counter system exepct for dcuo.
Players come out of pve and cannot even understand whats happening in pvp.
After i explained the mechanics and showed them in a scrimage,they said they couldnt belive how diffrent pvp and pve are,its like playing 2 diffrent games.What other games do this? NONE.
In blade and soul u can 2 man alert made for 4,if u counter the bosses and adds u will 2 man it,if u dont counter the boss at all 4 maning it is so difficult it could take 2 times to finish then normal or just not finish it at all,why? Becouse the game promotes its counter system.
After learning the counter system and basicly mastering it from so much pve,those players have no problems in pvp at all.
I asked on chat in BNS(blade and sould) how to pvp. They all answered me go do some pve. my mind was blown,couse thats what teaches u the mechanics pve ! the only thing teaching u the mechanics in dcuo is at the start in braniac ship,and guess what,they removed the shields from the bots so u can jsut spam them to death now,u dont need to counter them anymore.

I remember seeing lots of forum members who played from before immunity supporting immunity staying the over 30 page thread, so I don't know where you're getting how everyone supporting keeping immunity must not know.

It also doesn't give credence to your position that you call any opposition a "freak out" and then accuse them of having "arrogance".

There are tons of people with rose tinted glasses, its not all of them, but the amount of people using, "well it existed at a time where there was more people so it must be better," without actually even attempting to provide any reasoning as to how it is better is surprisingly ridiculous.

Immunity plays into teamwork. If my healer is struggling, I slow my burn to focus on getting immunity to help alleviate the healer. I change my playstyle to use a tool to aid my team mates. To view it as only a selfish tool is being close-minded about how the tool works.

And in any system people will try to avoid people who are bad at that system. That is not an immunity thing, that is general tendency of the players.

PvP has become more isolated, because of one shots and broken powers chasing away anyone who doesn't magically know to use those same things. The biggest contributor to PvP's current state is balance, not counter immunities.

Srry to dissapoint u,i was here before immunity and i know how it was,i use to hit someone in theyr block and brakeout and blockbrake them really faster after,it was really silly to watch XD,after immunity was introduced this game ,,sillyness`` was no more,the game became competitive,and players like clutchmeister were born.
And i would like to add what clutch is doing in pvp is ART.