The Timer is broken in Legends and Arena PVP @DEVs Please fix this

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Lvl 30, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. Lvl 30 New Player

    If you kill your opponent in Legends or Arena PVP at: 58, 42, 28 or 12 second of the timer, there is like 100% chance that the opponent will get 11 seconds respawn time each time he gets killed on one of the seconds described above.

    I know that the devs have no plans regarding PVP but this needs to be fixed please it is so broken to get always 11 second respawn time.
    • Like x 1
  2. Lvl 30 New Player

    Fix this please
    • Like x 1
  3. Wildcat Committed Player

    its broken for few years now?
    • Like x 1
  4. StealthBlue Loyal Player

    This isn't "broken", it was a design choice to have wave respawn timers for pvp (meaning there are set times that you respawn and your wait depends on when you went down). The devs have mentioned the reason for this choice in the past, but I can't remember what it was.

    On the flip side, with wave respawn it's currently possible to have no wait time after getting knocked out. It all depends on when you get knocked out.

    That being said, I don't like wave respawn. If/when they decide to look at pvp again, I'd hope they change to a set length of time for a respawn.
    • Like x 3
  5. Lvl 30 New Player

    are u on eupc/ps? i will prove to you how broken this is, you'll get always 11 seconds respawn time
    • Like x 1
  6. Lvl 30 New Player

    it is broken
    • Like x 1
  7. Lvl 30 New Player

    If people didn't know what seconds are to get always 11 seconds respawn, then this wouldn't be broken...
    but over time and for so long nothing has been changed in pvp people have found it out and it should be changed
    • Like x 1
  8. StealthBlue Loyal Player

    I'm on US, but I don't need to see it. If the examples in your first post are correct, the following respawn times occur.

    Match timer ends in x seconds --- respawn time if ko'd
    59 --- 12
    58 --- 11
    57 --- 10
    56 --- 9
    55 --- 8
    54 --- 7
    53 --- 6
    52 --- 5
    51 --- 4
    50 --- 3
    49 --- 2
    48 --- 1
    47 --- 15
    46 --- 14
    45 --- 13
    44 --- 12
    43 --- 11

    And so on. As I said, this was a design choice and is not broken. I personally do not like this method, but some hardcore pvpers at least used to argue for it to remain. In essence, they considered it a skill to time the knock out of there opponents to give them the largest respawn time. For example, in 2v2s a team could focus fire on one opponent, get them a long respawn, then have 10+ seconds of 2v1. If they were able to ko that opponent just after the first one respawned, they basically had a full match where they were just 2v1 (with one of the opponents always waiting to respawn).

    Again, I don't like this respawn method for pvp, specifically for the unfair advantage it can give.

    There have been many discussions on the forums about the respawn timers in pvp, and the devs have responded to some of those threads.

    "The game respawns players in waves in order for them to appear together with other players who died at a similar time, thus forcing them to work together." This quote is from an article for a different game, but provides some reasoning for using wave respawn. I believe this was the same reasoning given by the devs previously. Unfortunately, in some situations wave respawn has the opposite of the intended affect. It also doesn't help that dcuo has fixed, predictable respawn times.

    This isn't likely to change until/unless other work is being done on pvp as well. So the best you can do is make a thread in the pvp section detailing why you think wave respawn should be removed or how it should be modified (potentially depending on group size, for example). It's best to put that feedback in the pvp section because if/when they begin the effort to work on pvp, that is where they will look for what the players want changed.
    • Like x 1
  9. Lvl 30 New Player

    I completely agree with you. I also think this method is very bad and it should be changed because it's really unfair to get always 11 seconds. For example every time if you get killed the respawn seconds should be random and not permanent such as numbers 58 43 28 13. The numbers should change every time like if you get killed once you get 11 on 54 25 10 7, and next time it's different numbers for example 21 15 11 7
    • Like x 1
  10. Lvl 30 New Player

    Here is video of it, developers please can u change this? like i said above the respawn seconds should be random, not permanent such as numbers 58 43 28 13. Let the numbers change each time you get killed
    • Like x 1
  11. Brit Loyal Player

    It isn't broken. It's intentional. And it serves a very real and important purpose for those who do group PvP.

    By having the respawns all happen at the same time, you get Waves. If 3-4 people on your team all die, they will all respawn and return at the same time.

    If everybody had a static timer, instead of coming on the fixed times, then when 3-4 people die, they trickle back in 1 at a time, getting slaughtered single file by the other team.

    The respawn timer is basically a way of forcing people to regroup after a team fight. It's how you stop the less talented players from suiciding repeatedly by running in alone, handing your opponents the win.

    I do NOT want to see that changed.
  12. ShadowTheHunter Well-Known Player

    OP you are correct about this flawed mechanic. It does appear to have been intended but critically needs to be rethought. On US server, most top legends players know about this and other exploits/cheesy aspects of PvP, and the advantage of someone abusing this can be insurmountable.

    When timed with precision, this exploit can be used on someone over and over again, so that when they respawn and fight they will die on the next long respawn interval every single time. This can be used in any mode arenas/legends, 1s, 2s, 4s, whatever. High skill players are sometimes able to try to counter it, for example, by drinking soders if they know they're about to die on an interval. But even that can be countered, as some players deliberately wait it out and manage their damage so that they don't kill them until the next interval. The idea of this being used to make sure players spawn together does not justify its existence when it's able to be abused like this. Especially when even with this mechanic players don't always spawn together.

    Players will need to learn to either stay near spawn after respawning if their team is going to die, or kite around until everyone's back together. That's part of becoming more skilled and the bar always should be set higher, not lower.
  13. Brit Loyal Player

    Let me make sure that I understand you, just to clarify.

    You acknowledge that players need to wait at the spawn point and return in as a group, and that running in one at a time would just be a single file slaughter.

    You acknowledge that players do not want to wait at the spawn point, and are racing towards their opponents like lemmings, feeding the other team kills.

    You recognize that there is a mechanic in place that forces players to rally and return as a group.

    But you specifically as a player do not want to wait an extra few seconds, and instead want to race back into combat immediately and without delay.

    You specifically recognize that bad players are the ones who would refuse to wait and would rush back in alone. And then you say that you want to remove this helpful mechanic, because you don't want to wait and would prefer to rush back in.

    Did I hit the main points of your argument? Because it certainly sounds like you are saying "I know this mechanic is here to stop bad players from sandbagging their team, but I am a bad player and I want to sandbag my team."

    Are there some good players out there who can work the timer with precision? Yes.

    But there are waaaaaaay more BAD players out there who want to suicide back into combat, charging alone into a 1v4 because they cannot handle waiting a few extra seconds. Players who feel, in essence, exactly the way that you feel. "Gah! I can't wait for my team! I have to run in and get killed RIGHT NOW!"

    You CAN control if you die. You do that with your PvP skills. Adjust your playstyle to be more defensive right at that 12 second interval, so that if you are about to die, you can hold off another 4ish seconds, or to be more All-In so that you die before that 12 second timer hits. That is in your power to do.

    What you cannot do, however, is reach through your internet, grab your low-skill teammate's controller, and force him to wait for the group.

    I prefer to face challenges that I can actually do something about, rather than to take losses because of the shortcomings of others.
  14. ShadowTheHunter Well-Known Player

    I acknowledge that waiting at the spawn point can be used as a strategic option. The best option will vary depending on the situation. In Legends 3s (scrimmages) and 4s for example, we typically leave spawn as soon as possible because the enemy will regenerate health if they're out of combat. A skilled player will put them in combat and kite/farm blues if they're going single file, until the rest of the team comes back. If they're already full health, then yeah you wait to regroup.
    I acknowledge that some players may not want to wait and throw themselves at the enemy. If that's your teammates, then the rally timer isn't your issue.

    While the rally timer is reportedly intended, I'm not aware of the devs specifying their reasoning for its existence. Some say it's to have people respawn as a group like you say, but that's speculation unless the devs themselves stated it. Even if that is the case, depending on the interval players die on, they're respawning up to 12 seconds later than their teammates do anyway, so the mechanic only partially fulfills that.
    I never stated that I want to rush back into combat. I clearly stated that the mechanic needs to be rethought. You seem to assume the only solution is to completely remove the timer, which is false. The timer could simply have a static time, say 5 seconds, regardless of how, when, or where you die. Will it cause players to respawn apart from each other? Yes. But as I stated, the current timer does that anyway.

    Not that there's evidence that the rally timer exists specifically to coddle players into not throwing themselves at the enemy team anyway, you can't expect game mechanics to fix bad gameplay. That defeats the purpose of becoming more skilled.
    That's not entirely true. You can influence your survivability, thus influencing when/if you die. But if you die, when you die is ultimately in the hands of your opponent, especially if they are of similar skill. This isn't like some games where you have a suicide button. You must have missed the middle section of my original post. Players will specifically NOT attack you if you try to counter the rally timer exploit (by playing more defensively, drinking a cola, etc.) and wait until the NEXT 12 second interval where you are low health, cola is on cooldown, can't lunge away, no other options. And no, they're not always going to be using AoE, single target attacks are a thing. And they're not always going to use AoE at the exact you moment you need them to so you can cause yourself to die. If you're not taking damage...they choose when you die. Yes, you can hold off for 4 seconds. That's still an 8 second respawn. Every single time.

    You should be able to understand how this detracts from actual combat ability. When you play against this, it's almost impossible to win unless you're perfect at exploiting the timer. And there is certainly very little argument for this mechanic in 1v1s.
    Again, game mechanics don't fix bad gameplay. It makes no sense for this issue you speak of to be related to a premade team of players you specifically run PvP with. If so, that's definitely not because of the rally timer. If you're talking about PuGing PvP with randoms, that's a part of the game. And that's also a choice you're making and something to consider when choosing to PuG. The best PvPers lose because of terrible teammates sometimes.
    • Like x 1
  15. Rejchadar Inquisitor

    This mechanic introduces an additional element of strategy and tactics into the game. And let's be honest, if your opponent is able to control the battle so much that he will always kill you at a specific time, then changing the timer will not help you.
    • Like x 2
  16. FutureSoldier Active Player

    i agree that it introduces an additional element of strategy and tatctics but going against certain players while they're using this just isnt fun. few days ago me and my friend ran into "9" and "Bantos" in a 2v2 batcave and somehow they managed to give us they 11 second timer every time we died. from the other hand whenever we killed them they managed to get 0 seconds by controlling how their sodas were used. yeah the timer adds strategy but when used on the top level is just not fun to play against.
    • Like x 2
  17. ShadowTheHunter Well-Known Player

    I play with those guys and others regularly on weekends. We do friendly scrims, occasionally tournaments. And even the players in that circle get tired of dealing with the timer, because it's toxic. I understand some view it as strategy, but that's giving it too much credit. It only takes a team doing it once and it creates a sort of snowball effect. By the time their opponents respawn and they damage them back down to near death the rally timer is close to another interval. That is why it is so easy to give them 11 second respawns every time, because the natural flow of combat makes it easy to do it to back to back. It heavily affects the match outcome. It's a matter of who uses it first and who maintains it the longest. And it's exploiting because while the timer may be intended, using it to manipulate player respawn times hasn't been stated to be intended. It is never mentioned anywhere in-game either. On this server, outside 9, Bantos, and the rest of us, very few people even know of this mechanic's existence. And as you experienced first-hand, people that know the exploit will not spare you from it just because you don't know or don't use it. You'll get steamrolled.
    • Like x 1
  18. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    Just confirming this was a design choice, not a bug. Not that it couldn't/shouldn't be changed, but it is working as intended.
    • Like x 6
  19. ShadowTheHunter Well-Known Player

    We figured it was intended, but not sure if you all intended for it to be manipulated this way. You guys will ultimately decide whether it stays the same or gets changed and whether or not using the timer like this is okay. But, if you guys say it's okay and support the idea that it is strategy perhaps something should be added in game to inform players of how it works. Because right now so few players know how it works that it is an unfair advantage and a basically free win to whoever uses it.
    • Like x 1
  20. Bantos2 Active Player

    Sorry if we made it a bad experience for you buddy, we hold nothing back in queues because most people who do legends nowdays are on the top level. As of myself, I know how to control the timers and I wouldn't mind them to change. I do think it adds bunch of strategies into 2v2s and it needs a little bit of game knowledge to know when to pop your soda but as someone else mentioned above, in the highest level of scrims it just feels toxic.
    • Like x 3