Tanking Balance in SM and Feeback

This is concerning Tanking Balance in Survival Mode amongst powersets(mostly due to content design)
If you are a main tank(non-battle tank/battle roles) who is displeased about tanking balance in SM you are encouraged to share your opinions and experience after reading this wall of text as I am interested in others' thoughts. If you do choose to share, I would encourage you to share what your powerset is, how far you've gotten( the round/progress point especially if you're a non-Ice main Tank), and your opinions/feelings/experiences on how it was Tanking. If you did change powersets, why? For what rounds?
I know for many, this is their first MMO but it is any game's goal to try and achieve balance. Its that simple.

If you're going to have some defeatist mentality, excuses as to why there are imbalances, or try to say something that basically amounts to just working around the problem instead of fixing it, then I suggest you move on already and save your time. Thank you.

Its been quite clear both this Survival Mode and the last that certain Tank powers have an advantage over others. I was hoping this would be adjusted or fixed after the last SM but apparently not.
For the most part this will concern the higher rounds as I do believe you can complete 1-12 with any tank powerset and possibly chase for 20 with any tank powerset, especially after the last update where there was a slight nerf from rounds 16? to 20. I'm sure the healer you are running with and their skill/powerset will be a factor as well as your own. You may start to experience the differences even earlier than the 20's rounds possibly?(Idk, that's why I'm curious as to what everyone else has done or experienced).

Now, obviously I'm not saying its impossible for all Tank powers to complete it, I'm sure its doable on any powerset given enough time. Its just that it starts to be quite a bit of a hassle for everything but Ice at a certain point.

A little about me (You can skip to next Orange Section, but since some people care about "credentials"):
I ran all the original Survival Modes as Main Tank to high rounds and these newer ones to at least high enough rounds that my experiences and gameplay are not arbitrary with minimum experience and no room to talk. Not a single time was I playing the "carry" role(no offense to the battle and buff trolls or the DPS, you guys are still cool). Usually, I'm playing the non-Ice powersets hovering on Earth, Fire, and Rage at times.

To me the spirit of SM was always to push your Tanking power and skill to the maximum while holding the belief that every powerset would be able to reach the same spot. Just because there were flavor of the month powers back then doesn't mean its also okay to have flavor of the month powersets now as well. And more so, I don't quite recall the imbalances amongst the powersets being so severe back then either.

This season, I have not spent enough time on it due to life and helping my league get to the rounds they want but I have completed Rounds 1 through 25 as an Earth Tank and proceeded onwards even, a main Earth Tank without ever once changing powersets. I may continue trying for 30 but depends on time.
(By the way, especially if you are an Earth Tank and main tanked I'd love to hear how far you've made it or your own personal insights and opinions on your experiences.)

The Point:
Yes, I'm fully aware that each and every tank powerset is supposed to be unique and I'm not even asking for them all to be the same. That's what makes this game so unique and a draw. I'm saying content should be designed with that in mind, that all the powersets are different and therefore we shouldn't have content that makes it so much of a ridiculous drag to be certain powersets or force people to play a discount version of ice and have a bit of luck as well. Can't be catering to one specific style of gameplay and one specific power.

Again the point is, there are advantages to being Ice(and I've heard Rage though I can't speak on it) compared to other powersets, therefore creating an imbalance.
Every other power has something that's disadvantageous for it after a certain point: even mobility/speed is a huge factor for some(Earth/Atomic), not enough health or self heals(Fire), maintaining your Tanking kit/mechanics(many powers), your Tanking kit not even being good enough lmao to be played how it was meant to(Fire/possibly Atomic), keeping your pet alive(RIP Brick. No a healer won't heal him through huge attacks), lesser shields to rotate(again, many powers), having smaller margins for error(almost everything but Ice), etc.

Very often I see people playing discount versions of Ice because their own Tanking kits/mechanics of their powersets are just not as convenient or the margin for error is too small. And even then! Its still just a discount version, it won't actually be Ice.

At what point does it become that you are no longer even playing your own powerset the way it was meant to be played during its conception. The thing that made you want to play it because you thought "Well dang, that's a really cool mechanic, I'd love to use that!"

Dumb Arguments From People:
I've heard quite a few defeatist/silly arguments as well, some from non tanks, non-main tanks, some from biased individuals, and sorry but they're just silly. Let's go over them to prevent any of that arising:

"Just go in with 4 tanks and wait 5 hours."
That's not solving the actual issue. Its deflecting and finding ways to circumvent the problem instead of fixing it.

"You can do at least 1-12 and probably to 20 with anything, and its overall not unbeatable for any tank powerset. Just be happy about that."
No, that's just beating around the bush and avoiding the problem again. The fact remains just like the imbalance that remains. In the smaller margins for error/mobility/health/heals/tanking kit failures for powers. The fact is probably 80-90% completion of the Survival Mode is involving an Ice tank. Telling players to just deal with what it is and accept it is being defeatist. Its tells you to accept that Survival Mode has become a meritless joke that serves to reveal the flaws of content design and powers. Oops.

"Well there were imbalances originally in SM as well and there's always going to be a meta."
No. Things can and should change. Guess what, back then SM was 8-man and only 20 rounds, they changed it. There weren't vendor rewards either. If we want to stick to the past so much, lets just do that too then right? I'm sure that would hear a ton of uproar. While doing that, let's go back on everything else in the game too.
Point being, be open to ideas of change for the future.
Its better to learn from the past and improve than simply repeat it, especially when its so imbalanced and silly.

"Why would the devs design content balanced around everyone's powersets when its only out for a month."
And the answer is right there. BECAUSE its only out for a month. Plenty of players look forward to it and there should be more than enough time to get it right. The last one was ages ago and this was just a reskin minus 2 bosses which were different, and changing one boss to stop swimming a week before it ends.

"Its called Survival Mode bro, its about surviving, its okay to be running around like a headless chicken. Any power can do it."
Right right sure, and even then what's it say about balance when being a certain power makes it much easier to survive? When such a huge amount of completions involve a certain Tank powerset. Screams imbalance. Which is what the point is. That the imbalance exists. And as stated above, and for the integrity of games in general, people strive to have balance in their games to have an enjoyable game overall.

Possible Solutions:
How about test with more than just 4 or whatever miniscule amount of people who have 2-3 weeks of early access(2 who are infamously and conveniently Ice and Rage) and have people use multiple different powersets. Not even for just Tanking, for every other role too while you're at it. Healing powerset differences are a thing as well but someone else can be all up-in-arms about that.
"Oh but we don't want forum casuals nerfing our giant egotistical SM content so we have 4-8 who are supposedly the best of the best." Haha yeah okay sure. You can do that while you also make sure the content isn't disadvantageous for certain powers. Spend more time on it.

How about trying to maintain the idea of what makes this game so cool, that every powerset is different and you can play them all without feeling the need to play a discount ice tank to get what you want done. That your Tank powerset and its mechanics are good enough and you can actually play your own power and play it the way it was meant to be played. It certainly doesn't feel that way.
That you can confidently tell even a new player or newer SM player to play what they like without thinking back to consider these imbalances. Not stray them away from the game/content or start them on the wrong foot with the game/devs by mentioning all this. Goes a long way doesn't it?

That's how the content should be designed. You should maintain the uniqueness of the powersets while making content that allows them to be equally viable options. It shouldn't be some "Unique OR Viable" thing. It should be "Unique AND viable." Raids and Elite raids seem to be able to accomplish this to a degree, or to a degree better than Survival Mode at least.

Thanks for reading

I tend to don’t read so correct me if I’m wrong. You want SM nerfed or you want tank powers and other powers to be more similar in SM? Either way it’s not a good idea. SM isn’t supposed to be beat by everyone. The tank powers aren’t the issue, it’s the meta of the tanking being done. Only reason ice is being used is because you can gray range tank all the bosses and if you mess up…well you got your ice shield to protect you unlike most other tanks, fire can do the same thing as ice but nobody is going fire cause monkey see monkey do. It’s not like how gadgets is top and everything is far 2nd lol.

You probably should have just taken the 30 seconds to read the OP first.

Still don’t see what he’s saying if I’m wrong with what I typed

In short he wants the content to compliment the diversity between each tank powerset. He doesn't want the content nerfed and he doesn't want tanks to be made the same or use the same strategy while tanking.

That’s the thing the raids and everything else compliments the diversity. You can have fun with any tank power in the raids, don’t gotta make a special roll load out . SM is just dumb this year

Oh ok. Good to hear.

I've noticed for a long time there was always a "flavor of the month". This goes back to the early days of DCUO when new powers were still being developed. You would see a new powerset be OP on release and then eventually all the players buy respec tokens and then when a majority of players are using the "flavor of the month" power it gets nerfed hard.

Same thing used to happen with newly released DLC. XYZ powerset would dominate the LFG requests and if you weren't that powerset you had to struggle to get an elite group together and complete the raid.

Personally, I don't think that DCUO has a standardized QA regime for their content or their test plans really lack key components.

But I agree with you, I shouldn't be limited to what content I play based on what power set I am. It's a terrible thing that people have to switch powers for any reason than their own personal reasons to get content done.


Also this:

This is probably the dumbest move a forum poster can make. Replying to a topic without ever reading it. Bravo my good man!

I stopped reading at the part OP told anyone with a different opinion shouldn't respond...

SM is always going to have a certain meta going higher into the levels, especially the very top. The stronger things get the less vulnerabilities they will have, eventually leading to only one possible way to defeat it.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't have responded either then...

The whole point is that there shouldn't be a meta. That means the game is only being designed for part of their player base and not the entire community. Way to prove his point though!

Last I checked this was a public forum. What was your point again?

The first 10-15 rounds, maybe more, can be beaten with any power type, using any of the powers within that type. There is nothing forcing players to switch to anything to finish these levels. As you go higher, yes, you are going to have to change your playstyle and learn a certain way to do things. I probably know of 5 or 6 tanks who could beat round 30 with any tank power in the game

This just reads like another disguised, "everything for everyone" thread.

I completly agree with the OP. I think SM in gerenal needs a change.
In my eyes in order to exist balence, every power must have a flaw.
One of my sugestions would be moments of "invincibility", granted by some kind of previous setup.
For example:

Rage

Rage main tank mechanic is sever punishment, why not make rage unable to die for single hits that exceed your total hp?

When sever punishment runs out, you should be the most vulnerable.

Ice

As we all know, Ice is all about rotating sheilds. Windward for ice is a HUGE Sheild, that not only has high damage absoprtion, but also lasts forever. Worst, everytime manacles procs you get this sheild for free every single minute.

I think Ice Windward, should require a setup. Instead of Ice Armor be automatically granted everytime you pop a sheild, it should only be granted if you use Reflection. Forcing you to keep rotating between a normal sheild(period of risk) vs a strong sheild period of invisibility.

I cant give my opinion on the other tank powers, but I think this prob could be one of the multiple directions the game could take in order to address this issue.

What is your actual point? to make rage unkillable ? And then you trying to talk „Balancing SM“ lol!

what they simply should do is make SM like they did in the first season 8 man no one shots coming from the bosses but they do a few big hits also even back then people were playing ice/rage because you cant 100% balance it so it makes no sense to try to design content different.

fire isnt supposed to do everything a rage or ice can do. All tanking powers have advantages and disadvantages trying to change the entire content design because you arent as good as ice on bossfights is actually not worth a discussion this has been going on since the beginning of the game and all of the sudden people want other powers to be OP so they can achieve the same with less effort.

two things - Rage is already the other Tank du Jour in SM - using this as a platform to make it MORE dominant just because it's not the MOST dominant here TOO seems like wish fulfillment request on the behalf of someone who has gotten too used to Rage being able to do ANYTHING instantly.

And Winter Ward isn't half bad, sure, but A.) it's one free cooldown every 45 seconds, and B.) Shield Penetration mechanics already exist in so many places that the level 200 Proc on Manacles might as well be "makes your farts smell like roses", because compared to everything else it does that would be more useful.

Oh, and calling for a nerf of the Tank Powerset that has the biggest glaring flaw - i.e. "Almost everything in end-game Raids has a Shield Penetration mechanic" - seems like sour grapes.

Then go look at the first SM before you spread your wrong information,people were rage and ice you already lost by proofing your lack of experience in this topic.

Also your slavery argument is horrible i hope mepps will deal with you for saying this and it already shows that you have no arguments against my reply.

Finally someone that has knowledge. Thumbs up

And I'm sorry, but my dude, that's fundamental bad content design. What the OP is clearly asking for is that the developers take more time in developing their content with care.

What they've created here is a piece of content that clearly favors certain powers and creates a rather shocking fundamental imbalance in potential and that isn't just tanking even, it flows through to the likes of healing also, where the only ones I've really seen present myself are Sorcery and especially Water.. I mean where did all the Electric Healers go that were around before SM started...

The OP is right in that the community should never accept this sort of development and when content is developed in a manner such as this. It's ok Hurricane, if there's a 'best way' or 'only way' to defeat something when it involves strategy and mechanics, it's entirely another thing if content is developed where the best path forward for a player is to pay money; I would truly hope at that point such content wasn't purposefully designed with that in mind.

Putting forth my personal opinion as well I don't think 4 man SM should ever return, I don't think it can be balanced properly, period. When SM returns next it should always be 8 man.

Sorry seems im 10 times older then you in DCUO;_; Im was referring to 8man SM not S1 SPAM Lunge fiesta sm, where rage was not even in the roaster. Im curiose how many would beat SM, if ice was perma disable. I pug quite a lot., I saw ice tanks tanking to the face minataur bb and surviving just fine. So yes ICE is a problem.

Penetrative sheild damage is not even a "good" solution of artificial dificulty.

LMAO I didn't say everyone should get everything. I said everyone should be able to play everything. Whether they beat the content is another topic entirely. It should be playable by all... that's the whole point of this game. Everyone can play, not everyone can subscribe and only some people can play some content. It's really a simple idea, I am not sure why you cannot grasp that people want an even playing field to start from. Not an even end game result.

OMG yes, can we just kill 4 man SM. It's really not very fun, really not flexible for players, and not inclusive at all. I miss the 8 man arenas that really felt huge to players.

Dude stop assuming things such as „im 10 times older then you in DCUO“ makes you even more appear like a beginner.

The current 4 man SM is not good designed i said it in the past aswell same applies to elite raids design not being good with the support roll difficulty being not balanced elite raids are mainly about using 5 DPS and not much role checks aka support roll difficulty happening.

but my issue is that you are trying to buff/nerf powers for your advantage i didnt give respond to OP because hes viewpoint is true but you coming here with rage should be unkillable during severe punishment bla bla shows that your reasons are different then the OP.