PVP Weapon Data

1st off, applaud the devs for finally giving us the opportunity to help with PVP. Now, let´s get down to business.

This is a thread related to weapon data:

1st off the spec:

All prefab pvp mods, only buffed used was the weapon buff (from the power tree). No league buffs, no soder buffs, no omegas. All testing was done inside arena (scrim). WM specced, with verification of no weapon bug (unequipp / equip).

DPS toon stats:




Target stats:
(It would really help to have a pvp instance simulating arenas with 101cr pvp dummies).



So, before we start, let me share a small explanation of the charts.

You´ll see the charts have this fomat vertically:
1,2,3,4,5, time, dps, total, hits, max, % crits, taps

Where:

1,2,3,4,5 = means the damage range from the finisher move. Example: if it´s MA spinning punch it shows the numbers i noticed. If the numbers are with a brown tone, this means they were on on such parser, yet are important to note how high/low they go.

Time, dps,total,hits, max, %crits = Parser information

Taps: This is the last line of each chart, and not all charts include this data. This includes the high damage some taps did during testing (might or not might be in that specific parser).

You´ll see also in yellow, information i find relevant to discuss between the community and the devs like: Hgh damage, high damage from taps, time to kill, etc.

Remember, the target has only 7.5k HP, so i recommend at most any big combos to do max around 20% of the max HP (meaning max hits i suggest shold be 1.5kish). This should be discussed with the community so we can compare different points of view.

For now i include the following charts:



My take:

Martial Arts
Some MA Tapps are way off still (up to 881 a tap). And even in the 3TH (Elbow drop) and 4TH (Spinning punch) those finisher moves are comparable to damage taps.
Uppercut WM is doing way too much damage, same case with meteor blast mastery.

Dual wield:
Dual Flurry combos (from 6TH to 8TH moves) is doing just really low damage for the time and effort to pull. Compared to the ground pound mastery, that is way faster to pull and you can kill a target in 7.4 seconds. That should be looked into too. Same case with launching uppercut (odd this only happens in the 3TH-H one, the longest one don´t crit that high).




1H:
Flurry combo finisher is doing really weak damage, as the char shows it took at one point 53 hits to kill the target with that combo. Stunning swipe combo seems a bit of for the time it takes to pull out too. Dual Flurry M is kinda ok, maybe a lil tweak on the high end considering is long to pull and is an AOE that might split.

1H Pulse beam WM is doing several ticks, (i got 1 tick of 1051 and several 500s+). Yet is a long combo, but might need a small tweak lowering the damage.


HB:

Regular pulse beam: Yaa too much damage lol. Target died in just 7.7s. Arrow fling and explosive shot are noted to do some damage, yet i would say, HB Solar F. (didnt included it here) was doing on the combo finisher 230s-500s. Really weak imo.







Brawling enhaced shuriken is kinda off, and is really easy to spam. Damage should be reduced.

2H: Home run is doing more damage (even more than mega smash). The doom spin is doing serios dmg too lol, koed the target in 9.7s. The spinning punch WM is doing some serious dmg too, with one of the taps doing 1049 dmg.

I´ll post more info as soon as it´s ready. What do you guys think about what the max damage from any move should be? I added a description in another thread. Also note, this is to support the devs, if more people wants to help the spec info is included so we call can do more testing, since this is a mere sample, and there are still lots of test to do.

Let the devs know what you think and if you find some broken stuff for pvp, let the devs know. The more info we provide the more we help them to fix pvp.

@MOJA: Stats correction - WM Buh ¿? MUST READ BEFORE DOING ANYTESTING

So yesterday when i did testings for the other thread, my stats are as the screenshots from the main post in this thread. So, assuming i would just do everything with @Moja´s advice about the WM bug, i ran all the test today, asuming the stats would be the same.

When i went for the 2nd round that i needed to spec again, i repeated the same spec, and noticed my stats were different.
This means the testing from the post above are actually with this stats:



So precision in testing from THIS THREAD are with 5563 Prec, not 5122. (I assume is the bug Moja was talking about). I verified this by using again the armory used for all testing done today. So all the test ran today here was with 5563 base prec.

Also, is there any reason why there is a +1058 power inside arena?

Another question, this are the stats outside arenas:



Why is the prec reduced outside arenas? is this a bug?

2nd part of weapons (Didn´t test all the combos, but must)



Shield: Taps OP, critting up to 1041. Constant 400-500s.
Staff: Regular combos quite good lol. I don´t think they are that bad tho, they are hard to pull in a pvp match, they are kinda long combos, i just might suggest toning down a bit the last combo from the chart (the one that was 2197 max dmg). Also Air Launch Mastery is quite strong too.





Same, marked in yellow. (Almost didnt test this ones xD but oh well i was already there). Sorry about Rifle but i had to go dinner, girl was waiting.

I hope this helps, and more people can provide their feedback.

Hi @Moja and everyone involved interested in pvp weapon balance, I´ve come with this concept to quickly create some balance.

A word of warning: This is a long but useful post. Now, as usual, let´s get down to business.

So while testing and thinking myself "taps are doing too much damage" and thinking how would dots, and damage accross the board could be better, more people in test server share their opinion (I really hope they provide their feedback, a shoutout to Mole, he helped me with some testing and helped me debating about possible improvements), and then going back to live to do some legends, it suddenly hit me.

As usual, most of the times the answer is just in front of us. While fighting another team i was thinking, "This damage just feels right, the taps, the combos finishers etc" then instantly placing my attention in the white and yellow numbers, it all became more obvious.

THE PROBLEM

How do you make a whole playerbase agreed in what is balanced and what not for pvp? How do you get the magic numbers? How do you agree what is considered "too much damage"? How you translate satisfactory level or a balanced perception into numbers?

Is actually more simple than it sounds. We just need to rely on actual facts and do some reverse engineering. In order to understand this, @Devs you need to realize this: Sometimes what your data shows you is not what the community agree or wants.

Let me give you 2 clear examples to demosntrate this concept:

#1 On the last PVP tournament oficially organized, the pvp thread was active about the tournament. Teams were getting ready and practicing without even knowing the map it was going to be, they only knew it was 4s. The WHOLE PVP COMMUNITY knew what kind is the map that defines the most skilled players.

Suddenly, there is an announcement. The map that will be used for the tournament is Arkham 4s, a node map. Everyone from the PVP community, their moms and Carkus grandpa (sorry Cark ) were sadly surprised " WHAT BUT WHY"... we all knew but the @Devs that it was just wrong. What happened?

It turns out the in game data shows that the most used map for queues is Arkham 4s. Of course it is!! We all know that: 1) It has feats 2) is fast if you are vs pugs to get gear 3) Guys that don´t pvp that much queue for that map for both listed reasons. But it was NOT THE MAP THE PVP COMMUNITY ALL WANTED. Until everyone started expressing this in the forums is that @Devs realized their data was inherently misleading. It was no ones fault, it was that the interpetration was misleading for several factors.

Let me set another example:

#2 Imagine you like sports and you are following the NBA finals. Every day in the afternoon you go to your facebook to check that Sport News site to get the lastest info about NBA finals. And everytime you go in, this ad pops up, and every single time you try to press that little "x" to close it, you go to the publishers website, which turns out to be, lets say, Samsung. You go there because that little freaking "x" is too small!!

The marketing team from Samsung most likely is " look at this crazy stats, people are interesting and going into our website, we rock". Little did they know, at the same time they are celebrating, you dial your gf to complain " WE NEVER GONNA BUY 1 SAMSUNG EVER I HATE EEEEEEMMM ".

I think this clearly express the concept i want you to consider and understand. What need to be understand is the perception of the customers and what they want, and need. PVP talk, in the past, concepts have been imposed and the pvp community disagreed, and we were not listened. From Supply, henchmen, WM, AM, removal of RPS, we didn´t ask any of this, we were against, and yet we were not listened.

Look, we are customers that wanted X. Why would you force us to have Y, when you have everything to give us X. Is like if we tell you the winner of a horse race, and still you bet to the losing horse. Isn´t that crazy?? Well that´s what happened to PVP. Why impose something the community dont want?

Now, let me explain how you find that spectrum where the playerbase think "this is balanced" , put it into numbers, and translate it into weapon damage. This same principle can be applied for both taps, holds etc...

Now, if you ask any PVPer, even PVErs know, arenas are too broken. The most balanced aspect in PVP, is legends. This has been like this for such a long time.

So, lets analyze what makes them so balanced, and crush the numbers. Time to turn some subjective information into solid facts. For this, first we need to go to the hard data.

THE FORMULA and THE SOLUTION

Legends char have similar HP, almost equivalent to the base PVP health in arenas in test server. (My chars have almost 7.6k ish, if you spec into HP you can upgrade that to around 10k, similar to legends chars with high HP), so why experiment and breaking more stuff to satisfy the general pvp population, when at the same time, such player base agree legends is the most balanced pvp instance is in the game. Now, lets use this Balance perception and crush the numbers.

Now, a quick comparison on health:

PVP Live: low 27kish - 30k ish
Test server: low 7.6ks - 10k ish
Legends chars: Low 8ks -10ks aprox (depends on the char)

Now the analysis and number crushing:

Live server



1st thing that comes to my attention, is that damage from most taps in live server are similar to what is now in test server. (I saw even up to 1k taps with some weapons). Considering that HP in test server is way lower than is on Live, this takes a huge effect in how fast a fully geared player is KOed.

Stats used inside arena:

Spar target (ObsidianChill)



My dps stats:



If we consider some taps (no crits) could land up to 490ish in damage non crit in a 28,589 toon, (see ObsidianChill stats), each tap is doing (on a high end no crit) something around 1.7% from your actual HP.

Sidenote: Both Live/Test MA & HB lunges are doing too much dmg still.

Now, let´s see legends on live server, where the best information available exist:



Here, taps are doing across the tested weapons from 48 (staff) up to 126 (brawling).

On a toon which lowest available HP is almost 8k, lets make the numbers:

Low dmg tap: 48/8000 = .6% from total HP
High dmg tap: 126/8000 = 1.58% from total HP

See the relation? On another note, high dmg combos tested (DW in 6 tap hold) did 2303 dmg. 2303/8000 = 28.9% from a toon with 8k toon at least, but with a long combo. (One problem we face is WM, combo finisher + WM follow up).

Now, note the damage from lunges in legends. They are viable without been game breaking moves like MA is now on live server.

Also combo finishers are rewarding this way. No surprise why most who have done pvp in dcuo thinks legends is the best pvp instance unlike arenas, for the balance it has. (Damage wise).

Now Test server:



Here is where the disbalance starts to show up.

The lowest tap i saw was 186, up to 952. (MA). Shield goes higher (lows 220).

Now let´s compare damage from some of the taps:
952/7500HP = 12.69 % of your HP
220/7500HP = 2.9% of your HP
400/7500 HP = 5.3% of your HP
186/7500 = 2.48% of your HP

This damage, even at the low end is way higher than what is considered balance both legends and arena on live (Taps). Now, if we reverse engineer to what is considered in the range of balance and translate it into numbers:

Balanced tap damage (playerbase perception): THIS IS YOUR OPTIMAL DMG SPECTRUM (taps)
Low tap dmg: .6 %
High tap dmg: 1.58%

And factor the HP, (7.6k rounding numbers) then:

Low tap dmg (non crit) should be: (.6/100)*7600 = 45.6 (non crit)
High tap max dmg (non crit) should be: (1.58/100)*7600 = 120 (non crit)

Anything in between and so on should be the ranges where the weapons taps should be, being the slower ones (2h, brawling, etc) the ones on the high end of the spectrum, considering the starting HP is 7600ish in test server.

Now this system should be applied to lunges, weapon holds and WM. WM will be the most complex, since they are natural follow ups from combo holds.

Just for the sake of refer to this concept in a practical way, let´s call it, the "Sparty Principle"

Conclusions:

For taps, the perfect range of damage among the weapons, should be between .6% up to 1.58% of your HP (7.6k Base HP). This is the PERFECT SPECTRUM where your playerbase embrace the " this feels balance" thought. Is just subjective perception turned into hard data.

This automatically make dots the way they are viable (as long as they are not broken ofc) and in line with the balanced perception of the Sparty Principle.

Lunges should be doing no more than 300ish non crit. They are supposed to provide some damage, and be utility, not surpass hold combos damage.

Max damage from weapons should be in range of the 20% of HP (7.6k Base HP). To consider: How WM factors here. (maybe holds up to 1.2k crit dmg, WM up to 1.5kish max). The Sparty Principle can be used to determine what is balanced among all the weapons, even powersets by providing the optimal damage spectrum on the min/max range, and just placing the damage from each power in between depending on their complexity.

With this dynamic, more demanding combos (longer) are more rewarding, and the playerbase now has a real incentive to pull better combos, unlike now that in test server, why would someone bother risking a counter/long combo when 1 or 2 taps can outperform such combo. Even when tap crits v hold non crits are off by 10-15%, still not worthy. The Sparty Principle brings real value to the weapon system.

By extention, this makes tanks viables for nodes maps than they are now on test. Same case applies for healing out.

Precautions: Might need to tweak healing out, and power received. That´s why i cant stress enough you need disruptive powers that counter this. The same way a block is countered by a bb, and this by a lunge. Healing / healers shields out should be countered with more aggresive healing debuffs from the controllers, which power out can get affected by tanks and debuffs + shields removed by them, who at the same time their hability to survive (from the tanks) can be dampened by the healers. This make the dynamics better! Is not a full RPS where you used to have a role buff, plus complex change stats. Just tweaking this adds the mechanics without going full RPS. But, if you decide to go back to RPS, am sure everyone will be happy.

Disclaimer:

I am in no way trying to turn arenas into legends, am just using the data to compare how the damage from the weapons should be balanced with the balanced aspect of the game.

Remember that insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Did my best with the help of teammates and other people to provide you this information that is what your pvp community agree is balanced.

I hope this help!!!

- S