GU50, Tunso Testing, and Player Testing

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by Sore, Jul 16, 2015.

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  1. ChillCat Loyal Player

    You could argue the whole point of WM was to introduce some help, "crutch" if you prefer, to weapon-based damage. If it's there, make the most of it.
  2. Sore Steadfast Player

    On that note...

  3. Black Jaq Devoted Player

    the only thing I want to offer is that we shouldn't discount range playing. It still does a lot of damage. Maybe if players were forced to use range more often, we wouldn't blow through content so easily. This would also remedy those debates of how hard content should be. Reflect mechanics are being overused; to me, they are just being used to stop heavy burn on bosses.
  4. Absolix Loyal Player

    The first time this appeared was with HL's infinite combo update, but melee never actually hit harder than range at the time and no one really brought any attention to it so that would explain why it wasn't seen there.

    However there was a big uproar about mid-range with the Rage AM update. It was the biggest feedback point with many suggestions, and likely more options than just what the posters thought of could work. I'm still scratching my head as to why it wasn't realized then. It was also the first time melee Dps was a thing as every power till then could play out to 12m.

    There have actually been a few aspects of AMs added that could make option 2 a little easier. Ice and Fire got Bitter Winds and Enflame added to the power regen. Gadgets has Cryo Field, Celestial has Admonish into Cleansed Blight, and even Earths' Totem has a melee component. I'm not saying it would be easy by any means, but there appear to be a good amount of existing design to build around to possibly help the process.

    I'm not sure I would call 'Splosion truly melee or not. It is 8m and only requires being there for 1 second before you can move away, which is pretty easy for a mobile AM. I wouldn't call it mid range, but I'm not sure if I'd call it melee either.

    I hope melee WM doesn't get a buff. There are already quite a few WM combos that hit pretty hard and plague PvP already. I can't count how many Fire tanks I've seen spamming Shield's Big Scoop Mastery over and over.
  5. Greenman_x Steadfast Player

    I moreso mean pure clipping as it's own playstyle, not even Jump canceling which I never had an issue with dovetailing. When Weapon Mastery and Advanced Mechanics were announced, I was never on board because of what it meant for balance over the next few years. They then had to balance 24 powersets instead of 12 (prior to munitions) because they had to balance both WM and AMs for each powerset (effectively making them 2 alternate powersets). Now they have to account for range at which attacks are performed for maximum damage, something that according to Loche, will take an additional 6 months to do properly (at least).

    I want to see pure clipping return as a viable way to DPS. It was more fun and didn't cause nearly the amount of headaches that this seems to for both players and developers.
  6. Sore Steadfast Player

    I used friendlier words but you can see that's a consistent theme in this thread with my feedback. I'm not sure how scaling can be addressed other than through re-baselining or some pretty serious design changes. I would think re-baselining to a more "live" spec would be the easier effort. And if that's the case, I'm not clear why we'd baseline twice when we could just do it once. But then again, they are design. I'm thinking in terms of the rules of the game. They could change the rules on me and I wouldn't see it coming. So, in good faith I push forward with the current baseline efforts for range and melee using Tunso Tests. The sooner we test, the more data we collect, the better we present that data...the faster they can get through these rapid fine adjustments and into the next phase.
    • Like x 2
  7. Drift Hazard Dedicated Player

    I was hoping the old school clipping would be balanced in a way that it can do comparable damage to WM and AM. I always thought they did a good job making AM be able to recover at least some power while WM uses little power. It's just the setup for both are slow. Clipping should be about quick simple combos piling up together for fast burst damage albeit at the cost of power.
    • Like x 1
  8. ChillCat Loyal Player

    Devs can and will disagree but this entire exercise doesn't take PVP into account. Every major powerset balance done at least in the last 6 months IMO has had unintended consequences for PVP matches, and I believe it's because the combat interactions of PvP are somehow different than PVE. Something either in the heart of the code base or something in how all the additives (WM,AM, counter immunities, etc.) layered on top of the core have caused a divergence. Changes in PVE somehow create different effects in PVP.

    That said, the baseline approach is the right one. Focus on the solution that will make PVE, and only PVE, work the best. Consider every proposed solution (mine included) as solely intended for PVE. PVP will eventually get addressed, just not today.
  9. Loche Developer

    You are correct. Because PvE is the larger part of the game we have to focus on it for now. PvP will have its time allotted too.
    • Like x 7
  10. Scarlet Mysty Loyal Player

    Truth hurts
    • Like x 6
  11. Black Jaq Devoted Player

    just to confirm, we are still missing data in Sore's graphs. I tested the Mental update because I have a little bit more experience with Mental. I was Rage tank for a short time, but there is know way I can do the DPS side any justice. I consider these of the utmost importance.

    We still need "live tests" of Earth, Sorcery and Electricity range. I'm going to try to do Earth and Electricity.
    • Like x 2
  12. Sage-Rapha Steadfast Player

    Id do Sorcery live, but Im stuck at cr125.
    stupid luck based drops.
  13. MrHoiPolloi Well-Known Player

    Thank you. I have nothing more to add than that. Just, thank you for responding to this thread and giving us some insight into what is going on behind the scenes directly from the source. Communication like this goes a long ways toward encouraging patience among the community.
    • Like x 1
  14. Crimson Mayhem Loyal Player

    All of this. Clipping playstyle also meant classic combo clipping which is almost non-existant today. Most powersets don't go further than clipping in some buff between their 1234 spam. As I understand it, Might-based spam AMs aren't even intended to have any use for classic combos, it's either 1234 or WM playstyle.

    What bothers me too is that not only did the whole WM/AM stuff take 15+ months now, they also lifted the bar like 4 times. So much power creep. WM was ridiculously OP from day 1, now it doesn't even hold a candle compared to AMs. Then the BS weapon (un)balancing updates that serve no purpose whatsoever. 15+ months and what changed is that most powers now play 1234 with no weapons at all, classic clipping is dead and even WM is nothing compared to AM.
    15+ months of major rebalancing, and even half a year after the Rage update with tons of feedback regarding melee damage they notice just now that there might be a misunderstanding about ranges?

    I really want to hope that the disconnect between players and devs can be fixed to some extend with this new discussion but I fear that we will be in the same place again in 12 months.
    • Like x 1
  15. Immortal Kyrro Loyal Player

    Understand this about me. I'm a technician. I diagnose problems devise solutions based on the situation and limitations on hand abd implement them. I then have to explain how and why I did what I did to people who have no clue how anything works. I'm very blunt and direct. Please don't take offense to anytHing I say. I see a simple solution that I cannot complicate enough for people to understand. EspecIally doing it from my phone while sitting at a red light.
  16. WildcatHunter Committed Player

    Can sorc and earth get those pet buffs back that we got taken away a few days before gu went live? Those went away because of the pvp one shots.
  17. ChillCat Loyal Player

    Thanks for the confirmation. I'd ask that going forward on this and any other testing request we explicitly state up front that the requested testing is either exclusively for PVE or exclusively for PVP. I suspect a material amount of feedback and observations are mixing the two together and complicating matters. In effect we have to train ourselves to think of PVE and PVP as two separate games, and address them as such.
  18. WildcatHunter Committed Player

    OK I feel what you are saying scaling would effect the dmg done by people with differing cr stats gear. My problem is that mental which received this buff on test is one of those powers that will outperform what I'm going to refer to as the bottom 5 regardless of the difference in cr,gear,sp.
  19. Greenman_x Steadfast Player

    My biggest issue is that a year and change later we're still talking about this. Balance is as much an issue as ever and although we're getting closer numbers wise, we're still 6 months away (at minimum) before we get it right. I frankly don't want to put another 6 months into this experiment.

    We had a phenomenal way to play before. Clipping weapon attacks with powers gave everyone the best of both worlds. Instead of putting 6 months of work into what many feel is a very boring playstyle, put it into making pure clipping a viable alternative to these. We know it works. We know it won't cause issues with range/melee. We know it's fun.

    I don't mean to derail the thread, but this seems like the best option to me. Make clipping viable on top of this, and give us 3 separate playstyles.
    • Like x 2
  20. Immortal Kyrro Loyal Player

    I would not feel I have to play within 7m if I could have the sane potential at 12 as the other guy. But whrn I have to at 0m to do less or even equal to what someone else can do at 12 I rage and call it unfeasible.

    The biggest issue I see is the piwersets that Rely ob weapon damage. Why not simply buff the range weapon attacks within said non existent range classification that only affects a few powers
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