Dec Team and Mepps Please Eliminate Scoreboard

Im really sorry you take my posts as a selish idea, instead of addressing a 5 yr old problem.

So, in pre revamp, when everything older was easy mode, you think people needed to do the things I described above to just beat content?

I think it may be you, chasing a scorecard, that is worried the right thing should happen. Sorry for all those chasers, but again, pve should be a team effort, not selfish dps competitions.

....and, to the part about enabling the parser:

LFG isnt even a default chat. Yet many players figure that out....same settings tab for customizing the combat log.

Guarantee if the scorecard disappeared, the parser would be the very first thing most DPSs would toggle.

Yes, how do those other MMO's without scoreboards ever survive?

There's other ways to measure progression other than seeing more damage out on the scorecard. You can visually tell how much more damage you're doing through the speed in which you complete content and the very "feel" of difficulty, you don't need a scoreboard to tell you that. The very fact you're even completing content is a measure of success.

To oppose your opinion, people don't necessarily want the scoreboard removed because they want to remove your ability to see precious numbers, they want it removed because it fosters toxicity and the wrong attitude in players.

There is absolutely no denying that 'the competition' driven through chasing the scorecard has lead to a number of things within this game:-

• The DPS focused mentality, everyone wants to DPS because it is the "best means of feeling worthy"
• A poor attitude of people chasing damage, ignoring all other mechanics.

No amount of editing the scorecard, will change this because people will still flip straight to the DPS centered information and measure their ego.

Also acting like somehow there will be a mass riot if the scorecard is removed and that people won't just deal with it is a bit misleading. They've dealt with every other game change, they'd deal with that.

People's reasons for wanting the scoreboard removed aren't childish because you disagree with them, Obsidian, they're just differing view points.

Glitches are also entirely irrelevant to the merits for or against have a scoreboard it's not even remotely related to the topic.

Not getting into your thing with the other dude, but the majority of MMOs are on PC. If a game doesn't have a scoreboard, kind of like a chat system, they know PC players will get a mod of some kind and do it up that way.

When I first stated glitches, I didnt mean OC days of rafters or doors going back to inner and kahn. I meant testers finding things like gorrila beachball, glitches in power sets , and not reporting them to use on live (gorilla was reported this cycle still went live.)

Yes you're right, a lot have third party parser apps that display the information, there's even some out there for this game.

This game has an inbuilt parser for the purposes of assisting the PS players who can't get apps like that.

I'm of the opinion however, that people will turn the parsers on if need be.

Lol what an idiot....i wish they had a power respec use limit for a certain period of time. lol

well another option is, have a scoreboard but the player can only see their own results and not the other players.

Other MMO's survive without scorecards cause they have DPS meters lol, the whole time in raiding in Wildstar you can see and measure your DPS against others its just not in scorecard format etc but you know exactly how you are stacking up against the other players in the raid.

I will disagree with you on what you think the scorecard has done, you said chasing the scorecard has lead to a dps focused mentality and ignoring mechanics, im sorry Proxy but the game has done that to itself. The game is so easy to the point where we never need 2 healers in normal raiding, almost never need 2 tanks, still rarely need 2 controllers so its still after revamp down to the 5 DPS meta which is WHY you have a dps focused mentality in the game because you have 5/8 players per raid the same role. We can ignore mechanics because there are none worth mentioning to prevent dps from dpsing, did you see alot of shouts about dps comping DWF? no cause you tried to rush ahead or melee and you got melted because there was actual mechanics inplace that would interfere with DPS chasing. You ran ahead to dps in Inner Sanctum and you were the first targeted by the eye drones or you jumped ahead into a neuro-omac or got caught in a wing armor. The game is so brain dead easy from all these players that want the game spoon fed to them just like the ones complaining about a scorecard of all things.

In terms of my response glitches weren't irrelevant it was covered under "bad behaviour" in the game. There will always be something to foster toxicity in players, do you really think the pvp community cares about the scorecard dps chasing? those are some of the most toxic players in the game and the only thing that matters about the scorecard is who is on the winning side, all the numbers are just secondary. So removing the scorecard does nothing to change the toxic pvp community, would removing the scorecard have any impact on the toxic glitching community that look for every little glitch and bug they can find to make their raids/playtime easier? do you think it was the scorecard that led to all those people exploiting instances to get elite gear or marks etc in the past? Like I said before the scorecard is only toxic to players that let it get there, when the scorecard pops there is a leave option you don't even need to look at the scorecard, if your dps is so low that they are looking to kick the lowest player there is something else going wrong in the raid and that 5th dps is just the scapegoat. If there is someone ranting or going off in trade chat you are forced to read it just like if there are people being toxic about dps comping you don't need to listen to their argument you can simply /ignore them, change chat tabs, /excuse yourself from the raid, leave the raid and find a new pug etc.

Its simply not as big of a deal as you are all claiming it is and until you can provide ANY supporting arguments besides the big bad "toxic" players with their "bad behaviour" will no longer be in the game then i'll listen because that isn't a real reason at all.

Not all MMO's have DPS meters lol (is that where I put the lol, am I doing it right?) there are many that use parsers and the like but there is nothing mid instance allowing you to analyze your performance against others, you're simply focused on completing the content.

The DPS centered scorecard has lead to a focused damage chasing mentality, you're understating the problem to further your argument, but ignoring the way the masses interpret the information and approach the game accordingly.

DPS blatantly do ignore not just mechanics, but things like reviving people, your solution is to 'chuck rez counts' on the scorecard; this has often been a common suggestion. However, it defies human nature, if they ignore anything on the scorecard it'll be that.

All players will continue to measure the worthiness of their existence based on the biggest millions in the damage out contest, irrespective of what else you chuck in there.

It's ironic too that you bring up the 5 DPS meta, when the whole thing is driven by the scorecard in the first place, your discussion is actually self defeating because if you get rid of the scorecard and people can't even tell how long they're in an instance unless they time it themselves they'll stop chasing damage and balance their groups in a way that ensures overall success rather than DPS efficiency.

At the moment the problem you have is that people are chasing the scorecard for both damage and "time", it all creates an environment that actively encourages 'Burn Burn Burn at all cost'.

There are people that take this toxicity to even higher levels, I know two people who won't be named, one is a healer the other a DPS and when the DPS of those two goes down the healer stops healing to cause a wipe so the DPS friend doesn't lose the scoreboard competition - and you tell me that's healthy for the game?!? LOL (was that the right place for an LOL too?)

It doesn't matter what you do with the scorecard people are going to abuse it and use it to fuel counter productive competition.

The only thing people need to focus on is completion and quite honestly and with due respect Obsidian I'm yet to see you present an argument that actually legitimately justifies the scorecard even being there other than to provide you with a means in which to more easily measure your own damage against others, with yourself you can use a parser, against others it's not really relevant.

Or is the admission here that you want the scorecard to remain because you're using it as a means to compete with others and you don't want that removed?

Also having other areas of toxicity doesn't justify "not removing one source" it just means there's other areas also requiring attention.

Telling people to ignore the scorecard is like telling someone to ignore another person if they're abused and taking no action against the abuser because people can always just ignore them.

ESO does not have a scorecard. Only an in-game parser that you can monitor your own damage.

that game is doing better than DCUO.

They only have a scorecard in their pvp arenas

You don't need a scorecard in pve.


If you need a scorecard to tell you how you or your team mates are doing....You need better situational awareness.

Not even fair to compare that game with dcuo. It's not even the same type of system. That game is built on mechanics first and everything else second. In actually had to stop playing earlier this year. Between the people only farming open world content, with 100s of people, to get end game gear just to do a big dance thru what they call a raid was dumb.

I want a happy medium between dcuo and eso.

I was always confused why they never added pick ups... I've had raids where I've turned 1 man army and picked up enough of my team to beat the boss. I would've loved to see my pick up count.

Laughed my a$$ off at the omac and wing armor thing. Miss the days of being a tank or troll and pulling that omac on the group at catwoman. Memories....

I like how you just summarized my points but didn't offer any actual argument to further the basis for removing the scorecard besides the one I said the big bad toxic players you want them gone.

I didn't say all MMO's had dps meters but I could see how you could infer that from my point because I didn't clarify, there are enough MMO's that have dps meters for third party programs where you can add dps meters to your HUD, DCUO isn't like other mmos which has been a routine topic of conversation as well so even mentioning the point that other mmo's don't have scorecards is mute. Other mmo's third party programs are encouraged where with dcuo its not, ive seen the team speak overwolf plugin trip dcuos perma ban software and of course they won't disclose what program the detection program said you were using regardless.

The previous meta of the game was driven towards 'TIME" because of all the speed feats, now the new meta largely was no death runs. With the TIME meta you did need dps striving to become better dps to get all the duo/alert/raid speed feats, I really don't recall all the crying threads like this back during T3 that the scorecard should be taken away because of the toxic dps community, we were both around on the forums then and im sure you can't recall any either. Frankly the whole toxic dps community wasn't even apart of the PC community at all we trash talked just as much but the only toxicity was from airsurpreme and op scum, but the merger is getting off topic. I fail to see how its ironic that I brought up the 5 dps meta? 5dps meta was NEVER apart of the game before WM & AM whatsoever, you needed 2 heals for alot of runs you needed 2-3 controllers, 2 tanks for sometimes when the content was newer but usually 1 tank runs came about once players were geared. Name me any paradox runs or fos2 runs that were 5-1-1-1 before WM/AM. 5 DPS became the meta because of WM/AM directly because of the ability for dps to regen so much of their power to make them self sustainable and the fact that besides ToD and mechanics that forced 2 tanks you never need more than 1 tank/controller and the content was all so easy it either required barely any heals to the group or it was one-shots a healer couldn't stop anyways.

You all want the toxicity of the scorecard to go away as another band-aid fix to the game instead of addressing the actual underlying condition which was the content is so easy that it doesn't require any more than a 5-1-1-1 setup and because of how easy they make dps with 1234ROAR and sit and jackhammer or spam 2 rage combos endlessly there is barely any learning curve to the dps role so its easy for all players to do.

In regards to the player type you mentioned in regards to that healer those are just outliers those don't accurately represent the norm. There is always 1 raid that is the dps comp gates, olyn, jfa etc, raids that have minimal mechanics that lend themselves to mindlessly dpsing. If all the raids were like US where you have ghosts reflect, flamethrowers or like DWF with dmg pools, reflects and high splash dmg bosses you wouldn't see all those toxic players come out because they wouldn't be able to mindlessly dps those types of raids. Or are you seriously going to disagree with me on that point? "LOL"

"Telling people to ignore the scorecard is like telling someone to ignore another person if they're abused and taking no action against the abuser because people can always just ignore them."

Proxy are you seriously going to sit at your computer typing and trying to rationalize ignoring/disregarding a text window that appears at the end of all content in game to ignoring/disregarding verbal/physical abuse taking place? are you stooping that low to try just to debate me on this? Yes Proxy a few players fighting over the scorecard which means nothing to the other roles in the raid is the same as 8 people in your living room with 3 people screaming and hitting eachother and the other 5 just pretending nothing is happening.

Once again Proxy you cannot offer ANYthing to back up the argument besides "if we take away the scorecard it will remove some (large assumption) toxic players from the game because they won't be able to see their name at the top of the scorecard anymore

You only the see the PC players bringing up 3rd party parser apps... I guess they forgot majority of the population is console and there's no special third party programs for consoles to track parsers.

Remove the scoreboard and A LOT of the toxic DPS chasing behavior will die down. Not all of it, just majority. Plus I don't want to completely remove it, I still prefer to have it a personal scoreboard only so people who are DPS comping can still compare results via screenshots and what not. Maybe even an option to show your scoreboard to other people that request it.

So if your raid was failing because you were aware 1 healer was doing something wrong or the controller wasn't using recharge as the other controller and power was low at times or the healers were spec'd wrong in their gear how would you communicate that to that player or the group?

?

Where you can simply open the scorecard and say hey player look at your power out compared to the other controller I see you aren't hitting recharge that often or I don't see you use a supercharge do you have those on your loadout etc. Or dps look at your damage compared to others what is your rotation or I inspect them and can see they don't have white mods etc.

These are all simple on the go adjustments I can make in pugs and in raids because I do have situational awareness more so than most players but without the assistance of the scorecard I cannot simply and readily provide feedback they will listen to because I would have no way to prove it to them. Then you'll have more toxic groups because you won't be able to determine who is at fault or who you can improve their rotation so you will just see blind kicks or disbands

What I'm saying is it's a chicken and egg situation. what came first.

I'm not arguing that content should or shouldn't be made harder, I'm saying that's irrelevant when you have a scorecard that motivates one thing and one thing only and that's 'damage out'.

I'm saying that irrespective of how hard you make the content people will still chase that scoreboard to the point of toxicity, I disagree with your assertion that toxic DPS behaviour wasn't present in mechanic heavy raids. I believe it was.

What I'm saying is that the existence of the scorecard creates the toxicity in the first place, you can't just tell people to 'not be toxic' anymore.

Removing the scorecard won't remove toxic players, those players will always potentially find other ways to be toxic, but what it does Obsidian is creates a healthier culture within the game. A culture that is focused on completion rather than unnecessary 'competition' that serves no purpose other than, to more often than not, compromise completion.

I disagree, you do not need a scorecard to see what is happening.

There are visual animations in this game that indicate things, there are icons that indicate buffs and debuffs for example.

You can tell whether a troll is not using recharge enough because you can watch them not do the animation.

You can tell whether a troll is not using a supercharge because again, animations and visuals

You can tell if a person is not modded efficiently because you can inspect them.

You can tell if a tank is doing things wrong due to positioning and due to visual combat counters and general behaviour.

You can tell if a healer is doing things wrong.

You absolutely 100% do not need to open a scorecard to ascertain these things when you use your eyes to watch the game you're playing rather than relying on a number sheet.

And if you approach people to assist you can do this without having to do the whole "The scoreboard is telling me you're not doing xyz correctly".

In fact you'd probably have a better time of it simply by saying to them "hey I notice I never see you using a shield, do you have that on your loadout".

There's a parser on the combat log if you set it up right