Concerns: Artifacts from a Support Role

In all honesty, it's good the first patch focuses on health. Most people who are over 300 skill points are currently putting there extra skill points into health. There were times where I would have been dead if I didn't have the like 5000 health pool from my skill points.

Other batches will help with the other play styles eventually. Artifacts is a good system and one I like to see updated in as time goes on.

The group having more overall HP is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that these artifacts only really benefit the DPS. Every Tank already spec'd DOM because with the stats revamp change shields which are the meta now are based largely off DOM so they don't have to change their spec they just get a bonus health, DPS don't have to change the way they spec because for PFTT dps prec was pointless anyways so DPS were already putting the majority of their extra SP into health so they could survive better in melee etc so the artifact is just a bonus to them. Healers already spec'd RESTO for obvious reasons so they don't have to change the way they spec either. However the controller artifact is based in VIT which not all controllers should be specing into for the reasons I stated here and in previous posts, we DO have to change the way we spec if we want to maximize the benefit of our artifact to the group. We are going to have players see that the artifact buffs from VIT and they will spec all vit in their gear and SP and be worse trolls because of it as they want to buff the group as much as they can.

Having extra health is one of those things that sounds great to players on paper because of every single detailed reason you stated but for players that know what that means in practicality they know it's just a smokescreen just as I stated. You can have players thinking because they have more health because of the artifacts they can stand in AOE damage pools or not have to block or counter bosses thusly they are taking in more damage negating everything you said because the healer would have to work harder and thus in turn the controller. The extra health does nothing to stop any scripted one shot attacks which this game has plenty of now. Controllers don't get more power they can devote to cc and debuffs? literally nothing is going to change from the standpoint of powers, players will still use them off cooldown despite the 2-3k health you think will make raids GODS now and have no trouble clearing elite raids in the slightest. DPS are still going to use just as much power as before if not even more because they know they have all this extra might to play with so they will be looking for rotations to further maximize their damage potential.

If right now on live a 8 man raid group all took Health Special Forces and Omega went into ZOO elite vs a 8 man raid group not taking Health Special Forces & omega both groups would still be dying to the exact same things they were with or without the health buff.

I'm not against it at all, what I'm saying is that I'm sure it'll come in future additions to artifacts.

Ask yourself this anyway.

If you're not having trouble powering any group at present, what use is it to provide a group benefit that helps you restore more power when you're already not having trouble.

What use is it in providing you with healing benefits if you're already not having trouble healing a group.

To add another point as well, the moment you add 2 controllers to a group it potentially throws ObsidianChills approach to trolling completely out the window; his approach is merely the best method to preserve the status quo of running 5-1-1-1

But it isn't the only approach to group content in the game.

With that being said irrespective of the scenario you put before yourself extra DPS always, in every circumstance, benefits the group.

So I do find it somewhat amusing that you're advocating for a "stat bonus" that by and large currently isn't going to benefit anyone at all, unless of course you actually are having trouble powering a group.

Perhaps you could consider not doing it by yourself?

This is exactly the point I was expressing myself.

What is the focus of the batch of Artifacts that comes out with Earth 3?

(Oh, come on. I had to try! )

Finding a second troll is a pain, one of the reasons people just go 5111. Maybe it's different depending on faction, but on the less populated side, it's much easier just grabbing another DPS then finding a second troll unless you have some laying around in your freindslist. That has to do with the way trolling operates and why not many want to do it. I tried trolling for a little bit on my alt, went from vit to power focused and the difference was like night and day. I didn't even need to use a weapon, I PFtT'd trolled and kept everyone up just fine.

Telling people to go power spec after it's stressed that vit should be the main focus, I can understand the confusion. Trolling in general is a mess and the Artifacts keeping the bonus they have will only complicate it even more.

Nice try Proxy, we already did the math on that as well to prove our point, the controller spec we use does even better and is even more beneficial to the group in 2 controller scenarios

PROOF

cheers Proxy

I think this initial batch should be more role specific, we can mess about with group synergies in imaginative ways later. Keep the health = DPS thing by all means but at least add something to the support role wearing the thing. Why can’t we have a group synergy and a personal buff that relates? Like Obsidian made reference to, SPARC weapons! Why go backwards from something that was in the game 6 years ago?

Either way, some of the stat bonuses on these are strange to say the least... dom for the WM DPS? Errrrr whut? Am I missing something here? Are you expecting support roles to also use this one? If so, why penalise the WM DPS for it? And as I’m about to allude to, those playing different playstyles.

Prec for a troll? What if I’m full might/power spec HL troll using my combos as my weapon because the regen is off the charts and my combos hit harder than weapons and they also stun and debuff by default playing this way? Same goes for prec and celestial healers amongst others i.e. a water healer spamming Tsunami Strikes, Munitions comboing etc etc. PFTT support is a thing.

C’mon devs, give us stats that are going to benefit our role regardless of playstyle. We can spec for playstyle, don’t give us useless stats, especially when other artifacts stats benefit the user (PFTT DPS) in every way.

The first part was to further expand on the argument that everyone that replies to me seems to just skirt over because there is no convincing argument to state otherwise

In regards to your responses it can be summed up with your exact reply to me "perhaps and perhaps not" It is a fair assumption to make that players as a result of the net increase in health will take that as they can survive longer themselves without the assistance of heals and would take more risks thus increasing their damage in and thusly negating the usefulness of the net increase in health because that was eaten up by splash damage so the healer needs to work just as hard as they did before because that net increase in health is loss by the increased recklessness of the player due to his perception of having the extra health. You say its a completely different issue unrelated to Artifacts which I say in incorrect its a perfectly 100% plausible hypothesis that increased net health = perception of more survivability.

Once again one shots are one shots and you say they are unrelated to the topic which once again is completely incorrect statement to make, the net increased health of the artifact system will do nothing in regards to helping survivability of scripted one shots which is a really prevalent mechanic in the game today i.e USR, Iconic Bat Fight in GCZ. Groups will do just as well against one shots without the artifact system as they did with it.

Thank you for clarifying your power comment because Chillcat you literally stated "Trollers would have more power" so me responding based on literally what you said wasn't wrong on my part. Having a net increase in health will do absolutely nothing to change the controller role that isn't a perhaps and perhaps not statement that is a fact. The DPS are not going to use any less power with artifacts as before if not the perception will be they will use more power in bursts because the might buff is 12sec and they will be trying to maximize their damage output in that 12 second span. Healers will still continue to hit abilities off cooldown and overheal the group just as they have been doing forever. There is no reallocation of power with these artifacts it remains the exact same, like I stated a group on health buffs & omega will act the exact same if they didn't have health buffs & omega they will approach the raid in the same way.

wait, your saying the devs like the DPS better then the rest...??? say it aint so.....

I for one. don't play the lame DPS side. I heal troll and tank. you know. the skill needed roles. I wont be bothered with this latest money grab.

lol just wait for it...hehe

*sigh* i can't believe some people think that a pure vit still peforms well. I mainly troll and i also dps. And i can tell straight away how a troll is specced. If he is pure vit, everyone struggles for power (yes thats with 1 troll, but thats puglife) The artifacts only really promote dps.. are u gonna tell me that the health is gonna solve the one-shots we are seeing? I for one will never go pure vit. I will put the rest of my SP in there sinds dom is useless for trolls now aswell even when the stat says recommended for controller. Yet it hardly does a thing acording to those revamp standards. and if the group doesn't like it,fine. Get another troll. And see how that pure vit troll will suit u with that extra health lol....even now on EU we are struggeling to find trolls. Ive never trolled so much sinds launch of the revamp. So that tells something in what kind of shape the role is in. But hey we got Moja on the livestream saying "sorry trolls you are batteries" well thank you sir. Like we didn't know that sinds day 1 of revamp testing.. the stats on the artifact for trolls are simply useless. And the buff even more sinds that healthbuff (which is also useless) only benefits dps. So if these artifacts are to promote subclasses (roles) i would consider actually giving us stats for that role we are playing and not giving us prec instead of power.

All you did was to further clarify why you were correct in your statements but you don't offer anything to actually illustrate the point, are you able to logically reinforce your position in a way it can be prudently applied to the future of the game? I am not seeing that in your responses to me. I told you that increased overall net health will have no ulterior benefit especially to the controller role with the induction of this artifact system. DPS will still require just as much power if not more for the reason I stated above, in addition to the fact that having increased overall net health does not mean the healer will need to work any less and have them not reapply HOTS after cooldown. The meta of using our supercharge regen ability off cooldown while applying an extra debuff depending on our powerset and then hitting our recharge ability as close to cooldown as possible will not change before and after the induction of the artifact system because this current release of artifacts does nothing to assist the controller role, we don't have any increased power,pot,debuff duration, stun duration, shield strength or duration which in turn WOULD ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOU STATED in respect to controllers having more power to devote to other purposes because the artifact would have increased the effectiveness of the actual abilities we use consistently.

I'm just waiting for someone to try to sensibly and skillfully try to debate any of the actual merits of my argument for a different controller role artifact system so far you and others have stated only

• Wait and See what Artifacts come next
• Everyone needs & can use Health

that's about it??

Power is an underated stat category for trollers. Vit + power combo was good even before revamp (end game content to SM). It's one of those good tidbit that some folks just keep to themselves. Not because it's a well guarded secret as much as the effort to try to convince the predominate troll community who use all vit spec.

You definitely have a good point there. I personally don't need help, but other support players do. But then again that could because of lack of experience etc.

My argument will be negated if the devs follow through, though.

I could be wrong of course, but i totally see them not releasing more specific artifacts for support roles until long after this set, leaving us making threads asking when they're coming out.

Our disagreement about controlling aside because it doesn't really matter.

You're refusing to accept the benefits of the current artifacts because they don't fit what you immediately want.

You're not allowing any time for development. Mepps has already come in and said more will be added and that this is just the first lot of artifacts.

At this point this thread is more like a tantrum than it is legitimate feedback.

You're basically telling people how they should and shouldn't play and you're also telling people that they shouldn't disagrree with you and see the benefit of the current artifacts because they don't fit your narrow view of what you find useful.

Cheers chill

Now while I don't play the dps side of my role very often as I enjoy the support side I can appreciate the skill it takes to be a good even great dps. Figuring a loadout, stacking it right, picking the perfect time for enhanced attacks takes skill and practice. I think (and it is my opinion) that being good at both support and dps takes skill.

Like usual I will reserve judgement on the artifacts until after I have experienced them firsthand. Hopefully with the introduction of future artifacts more roles will feel they are getting focused upon

Disagreement about controlling because it doesn't matter? You mean it doesn't matter because every single thing you have ever stated about the controller role in regards to this thread and my points in regards to the artifact system as been successfully retorted. You have added absolutely nothing to further the counter points to any of the merits i've brought up so I guess you are right because it doesn't matter because you haven't offered anything of substance.

See DCUO has already walked down this path before and guess what I was at the exact same place then as I am now, WM/AM I was told to allow time for development because it could all work out and be better than the combat system we had during pre-gu36 and guess how that worked out for everyone? We had slow boring WM's that utilized the same set of powers for each powerset Weapon Buff>Weapon Mastery Combo>Hard Hitting Instant ability and repeat. That is not even mentioning the point that WM was designed to be an alternative to jump clipping not a substitute but if you didn't use WM then you fell behind every rotation. Then we were promised AM's and that players could choose between WM and AM to which better suited their playstyle and guess what happened then? Every AM upon release was more OP than the previous one and there was never a time that WM could equal AM in terms of potential. Fast forward to now the new devs say the WM/AM was the incorrect path to take the game (surprise, surprise) and they scrapped all of it in favor of Stats Revamp.

Your passive wait and see approach did wonders during the WM/AM of the game that largely killed the population and people have complained about its introduction and hailed stats revamp as their saviour where literally when WM was test I was bringing up changes instead of just allowing any time for development so I am not sorry Proxy that like I said before you cannot tell me any instance in this games entire history of waiting for time for development has worked out, just as PVPers continue to wait after years of being told to wait for development.

I can tell people how they should and shouldn't play the role because my opinions are based in fact and evidence, I can tell people how they should elec dps or rage dps because I can show evidence that it will outpace any other elec or rage dps. I can tell people how they should be controlling because myself and others have spent countless hours into proving that playstyle is more conducive to benifiting the group than others. In the end it is up the player to decide to adopt that playstyle but I would like to think that people play games to get better at it, if you play a game like dcuo just to have fun and not care at all about bettering yourself than you certainly wouldn't be on the forums commenting on threads like this.

I really don't see how my continual feedback can be viewed as a tantrum, this isn't even a debate no one has even come close to remotely defending themselves in countering the merits of my argument in the OP

By that logic why do dps get a might boost? Any decent dps burns through an instance very quickly as is. Why buff their effectiveness? All the trinkets basically stack the groups health just to buff the dps.