So I got my thinking hat on in terms of team make-up today and the nasty truth is that we, as an MMO, are heading in a deadly direction. That direction is one where the suppo- ya know what? No, I refuse to call healers, tanks, and trolls support because the idea that they are "support" roles is part of the problem. Support is something that is nice but not always needed, and that is not the way to be looking at roles other then DPS. I digress, we are heading in a way where there would be so few non-dps roles that it seems wrong. I have always been a fan of the idea of the 2-2-2-2 make up for a raid, but now a days most people are looking for 4 dps, ect. How about we give a reason to have this make up, in both the mechanics of the raid, and also in the form of a passive buff. Sort of like the buffs that the alert teams get when they are out a role. Say if you get a group that is 2-2-2-2 then the entire raid party gets a buff called a Synergy buff. The entire group will get 10% dmg buff (dps), a 10% health buff (tanks), recieve 10% more healing (heals), and consume 10% less energy (trolls). This is just a blanket idea of course but something needs to be done in order to bring some balance back to PVE content.
Er... what the hell are you blathering about? Role Buffs are for 4-man Alerts and Ops. Debuffs only affect players in PVP. The OP is talking about the raid group make-up mentality of past and present. What you mentioned has zip-ee-dee-doo-daa to do with with what the OP was discussing...
Well we do run 2-2-2-2 in AnB with 1 heal and 1 tank dual role as thats how we prefer to do it, the problem is the other raids make it a lot tougher to run that way because they need burn, enrage timers were/are/will be the death of the players who play their roles rather than off role (bit long winded so may stick to calling ourselves support ). As long as new content goes down the path that AnB has set out then I cannot see anything other than balance coming back in, if however the devs revert to the PW/Nexus route then unfortunately Pew Pew will win out...luckily those raids appear to have been a financial disaster in comparison so hopefully the former will be the chosen path.
For all those who pine for the glory days of 2-2-2-2 groups, exactly how long did they last? Group makeup wouldn’t matter if people played their powers and not just a role, especially since the introduction of armories. While content design could bring balance to groups, people will always find ways to circumvent most mechanics. The misconception that there are fewer “support” roles is more a result of them not wanting to PUG than there being a dramatic decrease in their population.
This is going to be a lesson the community will have to learn on their own. As soon as the DPS spots become too plentiful and no runs can be made I'm certain that people will start playing their support roles
I believe they ended with the release of Battle for Earth. Gates still used the format for a while but people started realizing having 2 tanks without a split mechanic was pointless. Downhill from there on :/
Well in leagues they are already especially ince the armouries introduction, its more pugs that have this issue, or more to the point pugs that join mostly league groups to be exact. I must admit we try not to have any pugs at all if we can help it or if we do we stick to friends lists as since the buy feats option has come out pugs on the villain side have been dreadful. Question is how to change random pugs mindsets, we did try a couple over the last week or so but we mostly got hero alts who had atrocious arrogant attitudes and didn't know what they were doing or players who refused to run with less that 3 trolls - perhaps we need to reduce the base stats effectiveness we all have and give certain group builds buffs so 2-2-2-2 would be the ultimate and get the most buffs and the further away you got from that the less buffs you get, if you miss one role altogether you get debuffs...
Agreed 100%. The problem the developers face is that because so many players have learned the clippy spammy rotations and that more than 1 tank and 1 healer is irrelevant in most cases, this will continue into content designed specifically for 2-2-2-2 (like A&B is) and basically be obliterated using the Nexus/Paradox style of play. I feel the best solution going forward is the idea of passive buffs for balanced teams. I hope it's given serious consideration so that it begins to level out the community and encourage people to learn their off-roles. Going into Nexus/Paradox/A&B with a 2-2-2-2 set up offers no bonus whatsoever. It merely adds time, in most cases, onto the raid (particularly in Nexus). Going forward, I feel we should face raids that are extremely challenging if you decide to break away from 2-2-2-2 because raid design alone isn't enough to discourage an imbalanced team. Perhaps a 10% group damage mitigation (20% for the tanks) for running with 2 tanks, a long with stronger and longer taunts for running with 2 tanks. 10% group healing bonus (20% for healers) and enhanced shields for running with 2 healers. 10% power return buff and longer, stronger debuffs for running with just 2 controllers. Group 10% damage buff (bonus 20% for DPS) for running with just 2 DPS. Then with the new mechanics, attune the raids so they're extremely difficult for the 2-2-2-2 group set up with bonuses with none of that tier's gear and challenging but ultimately beatable with a complete set. Make it virtually impossible to beat the raids without the buffs from going with a balanced group.
Yeah definitely agree that groups built around the 2-2-2-2 should rewarded and those aren't punished and the figures you pitched above fit nicely into that, maybe have the inverse as a debuff for those that run in less than ideal group bulds, I also think that putting things like the maze mechanic in, especially with feats like 4 corner attached, are the way forward - they require thought and well balanced teams not just burn. Basically using the newest raid, AnB, the foundations are there and the future looks good for balance in groups to come back in after the disaster of OC, and Battle for the Earth to an extent, and I for one am hoping that the devs go further next time perhaps implementing a mechanic like the above.
Last I checked, buffs and debuffs occur when in a role. In the world-realm, in instances, in PVP, in PVE - all over.
Agreed. I love A&B's design. The trouble is, it doesn't enforce a 2-2-2-2. Even though I'm sure the developers agreed to build the raids with 2-2-2-2 in mind, most groups will still all go to Mogo/Ranx then 7 will head to Metropolis. Much like the split in Nexus where all 8 players fight the bosses to minimum health and then split. They defy the design. Ultimately design alone can not resolve the situation, but design combined with buffs for using 2-2-2-2 and building content so it's easily beaten with 2-2-2-2's buffs (and the appropriate gear) will be the best tool to combat the DPS/Controller stacking, in my opinion.
Yes, annoyingly have seen that happen when asked to help out, what we do is split, or last night we had a tank go metro and all rest mogo then joined tank for Kilowog fight, either way wasn't ideal and agree that the split should be enforced. Maybe lock the tele's after 4 players have gone through as both groups will get loot from the respective bosses, cannot really see any other way of forcing groups to split...
The issue with giving the "debuff" is that we don't want to punish people for those times when you really cant find the right group make up to do the content or punish them for not wanting to play the 2-2-2-2 style raid. We want to make the 2-2-2-2 style not just a viable option, but the best option. The group buff is a push in the right direction, and I feel that if we as a community push for something like this, it will get done. Now fixing the raid mechanics so that you have to have the 2-2-2-2 group is a bit more challenging because lets face it, this community will find a way to do the raid with one tank. But if it is strongly encouraged to do raids in the 2-2-2-2 set up then it might help the game go in a better directions then DPS universe online.
But with armouries etc there really isn't any excuse for not finding a role, especially as this would boost the chances of more players pugging the roles that are short in LFG, I do think if you run without one or more of the 4 roles then you should have a debuff handicap. We as a league will always try and run with 2-2-2-2 and have a couple switching during the raids as that is the most fun way to do it, sure we could stack dps and burn through in half the time, we have done that a few times when bored, but its not as much fun. Every now and again we will randomly shout for a pug DPS to see what we get and 9/10 times they are shocked we only run 2 trolls, 6/10 will leave group when we tell them we are not running with anything but 2 and only 1/10 will be fine with it and join in...and those are the ones that always either end up on friend lists or recruited
