I see why people want to pull their hair when trying to debate with you.... That’s not my definition... that’s THE definition of pay to win and pay to progress. I literally said multiple times that I agree that the pay to progress of artifacts is just as bad. But you or so dense that you feel you can never be wrong and so think I’m against you on this.... I’m done here. I can’t tell if you really are that foolish or if you just want to keep arguing for either attention or I build your comment number. Either way I’m don’t arguing with someone like you...
Idc about your definition. It's the universal definition. Calling someone foolish because they won't accept your definition of something that has been around for years is ignorant. I don't know why you fighting so hard.
Nothing to do with the thread, but have a question while we’re on the topic of artifacts. On my new cr skipping toon I’m using grimorium verum on my dps and troll, does using grim below 200 effect your power regen, or does that only apply to robot, sorcery, earth, etc? My other two are harness and amulet (haven’t ranked up yet).
If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.
"If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win." Having a nice costume "positively impacts my game experience" so purely cosmetic items are also pay to win under your definition. Bad definition. If you define things too widely they become meaningless.
There seems to be this misconception that if any amount of money can be spent, then it must be "pay to win". "Pay to Win" has two essential properties. First, it must require Payment. Second, it must result in "Winning". It must mean that you paid in order to become better than what a non-paying member is able to be. If you can get it through normal gameplay without paying money, then paying for it is NOT "Pay to Win". It's just a convenience item designed to speed things up, so that new or returning players can catch up to the veterans, or existing players can create viable alts and catch them up to their other characters. Paying money to get something that gameplay provides for free is not "Pay to Win". It's just paying.
What are you actually winning? Sometimes I'm amazed at the abuse that people tolerate. Just take a break if you hate the current business model. Pay 2 Whine seems like the model that a lot follow. Stop paying subs and buying from MP if you are unhappy.
In the scenario you presented, we both successfully complete a raid. We both win, get our loot, get our marks, and move on. I could do it with you by my side. I could do it with somebody else. I can solo heal it without you. I fail to see how you gained anything that I couldn't, since we both see literally the same results. I will repeat again, if it's "Pay To Win", then you need to be able to get something that I cannot through normal gameplay. When I can beat literally everything in the game without spending beyond my sub, unless you have access to some extra difficulty that I cannot access, the best results you can ever see is to match mine. You're paying to catch-up to the people who already put in the leg work. Paying doesn't get you anything that we don't get through normal gameplay. Simply paying money to the game does not mean "Pay To Win". Go play Mafia Wars for 15 minutes. The dropped guns in the game have an attack power of 25. The one that you can buy for $0.05 in their store has an attack power of 1000. And it's a PvP game. That is what Pay To Win means. Not a tie. Not equal results. Not a time-saver. Pay To Win means that you pay money and you are permanently better than people who didn't pay money.
merely pointing out another definition of pay to win, of which there are many. kinda feels like its very subjective at this point. not that im a fan of the artifact thing, but I cant consider it p2w since i can get everything i need in game to get the artifacts to a workable level (i aim for 140-160) since its just not worth the effort to put more work into something that will be rendered obsolete inside of a year.....
You are being disingenuous here. That is not the definition and there is no fixed definition. It doesn't appear in miriam webster or any other publication. Googling it will bring up reddit and UD definitions. Nothing else. Acting like he is being dense when in fact he is at least correct to say your definition isn't any better than his. And if you do google the defintion the results definitely lean closer the ALB's definition than yours. In fact in my experience DCUO forums is the only place I can find the strict definition of P2W. Virtually everywhere else on the gaming internet seems to agree with the general defintion found on google, which is that you pay to get an advantage, whether or not that advantage is exclusive to the paying customer doesn't matter. https://www.google.com/search?q=pay to win definiton&rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB874GB874&oq=pay to win definiton&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l6.4919j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play - even the wiki entry agree's with ALB. Feel free to use your own definition since there isn't a true definition. But getting annoyed with someone for not conforming to your made up definition when you likely already know it's not a true definition is just sad to see, did you ever even try to fact check yourself? I dunno, weird.
In your example you are looking at "winning" as only completing content which is incorrect. I don't think the focus of this thread was for the support roles as none of the tank/troll/healer artifacts are that much more beneficial at 120 vs 200. The focus is on the DPS role artifacts. In your example of "winning" what is the role of a DPS in dcuo? Their role is to do as much damage as possible which in turn leads to completing the content. If there are 5 dps in a run and you are 5/5 of those dps you aren't "winning". The simple 100% indisputable absolute fact is that if you have a DPS with 3 200 artifacts vs a DPS with 0 or <120 artifacts there is nothing that lesser artifact DPS can do to out damage that other player. It even goes further to where if a DPS even with 2 200 artifacts and is missing the Transformation Card or even the Strategist as prec and some might powers even they cannot do anything to overcome that artifact gap. The only way to get 1 200 artifact let alone 3 of them is to pay multiple hundreds of dollars for not only Seals, but either catalysts or resets in order to build up enough source marks to buy them in game, the multiple perfected nth metals etc. The dps role can largely be considered p2w at this point because the only way to remain competitive in damage is to have multiple high level artifacts.
I very much respect you, Chill, and your opinion does carry a lot of weight to me. I guess the place where I differ is just in that I personally have 3 160+ Artifacts that I have never spent one cent on beyond my subscription. Does it require Seals? Yes. But I have never, ever bought one. They give us Seals regularly as a part of the Catalyst weekend, and since it is Nth Metal, not Catalysts, that is the real bottleneck for those breakthroughs, I find I actually am given free Seals faster than the rate at which I need them. I've used a handful, including the one from this weekend, just to do the level 23 breakthrough of my Augment. I'm not debating whether or not Seals are necessary. I fully believe they are. I just don't believe they require spending money. Unless a player wants to use a Seal at literally every single breakthrough, including the low level ones that have a high percentage chance of working without it. They're only really required at the higher levels where the breakthrough percentage is low, and that directly parallels when the Nth Metal costs get so expensive that those breakthroughs do not happen very fast. And I've never had to purchase Nth Metal, or Nth Metal detectors. Getting to 120 happens really fast. Moving from 120-200 takes a ton of time. But comparing a player with no artifacts versus a player with 3 maxed 200 artifacts isn't the real comparison. A non-paying customer isn't in a no artifacts situation. A non-paying customer still has very little difficulty getting 3 artifacts to at least the 120 mark, and can steadily advance beyond that, the way that I have, just by putting in the time and effort. I don't even play excessively; maybe a couple of hours a day, and that's enough to hit 160 breakthroughs. A non-paying customer who leveled themselves from character creation to CR293, and is preparing to enter Elite Endgame raids has seen piles upon piles of Nth Metal drop along that journey. We cannot pretend that all of that free Nth Metal doesn't exist, and create some sort of comparison in a vacuum, where players who have high level artifacts were only able to by spending thousands of dollars, and anyone who didn't somehow never equipped an artifact in the first place. People pay money to catch up with the experienced players, to narrow the gap so that they don't have to wait to join their friends. People pay money to be able to try to jump those last couple of breakthroughs when they're impatient and don't want to earn it at the regular pace. It's like Replay Badges to finish their tier gear. They don't get anything better than what I might get. They just race to the end and then have nothing left to work on while they wait for the next Episode. And that, I also support, because not everyone plays at the pace of the game. Someone working on the railroads or in the military may have large free periods all at once, followed by more extended leaves where they cannot do daily gameplay. If they want to use up 4 months of gaming all in a week, go for it. The extra money they spend can balance out the months where they have nothing to do and therefore no reason to sub. And, perhaps the most tricky of the Artifact issues, people pay money to switch Artifacts. They put in all that normal gameplay Nth Metal into their Scrap of Soul Cloak, and now they want to trade it in and transfer it over into their Strategist Card or whatnot. That loss of 50% of the XP they've sunk into it, when that 50% reflects months of gameplay, is downright brutal. Essentially they pay money to swap from one thing that they previously used, to a different thing that is new and exciting. Essentially the same principle a Power Change token. Instead of investing the time to rebuild something new from scratch, people would rather pay some money and skip to where they were previously, but using something new instead. To that... I am indifferent. In my mind, a 120 Artifact is a 120 Artifact; 160 is 160, and 200 is 200. If players are feeling the strong need to destroy old artifacts and level up the new ones, that is not a commentary on the artifact leveling system. Instead, that is a fault in the artifact balance, and how so many of the original ones were garbage that need buffed, or the new ones are being released in an improperly overtuned fashion (like Eye of Gemini) which will eventually have to be dialed down. I have zero interest in following the whole "new hotness" because too often the balancing that should have occurred on Test Server is being done on live, and it would be just silly to dump tons of real life money into leveling an artifact, only for it to be nerfed soon after. Don't get me wrong. I have my issues with Artifacts. There are definitely things that I don't like about them. But purchasing Nth Metal and Seals still feels 100% optional to me, and so the "Pay to Win" claims just don't hold water. I, and hundreds of other players like me, level our Artifacts up without having to spend money on them. And while there's a huge difference between a 200 artifact and not having an artifact at all, there is just not a huge difference between a 200 artifact and the 160 version that I built entirely free. I've got a bank full of Nth Metal that I'm holding off on for a double weekend, just because when I look at those level 200 stats, it's not significant enough to be worth rushing to immediately, when I could hold off and double my payoff by being patient. Changes I would like to see with Artifacts? They should be assigned like Augments, instead of requiring inventory space. There are too many of them, and with more constantly releasing, to realistically expect players to hang on to all of them. The XP is too slow to expect players to destroy and re-level them. And the claim was that they would provide increased flexibility, but we cannot actually test different combinations if we can't hang on to them while they're not in use. Make them like Augments. They should be Account-Wide. If they are to remain equippable items, then they should be Account-Bound even after being equipped, like the Batman Orbital, so they can be freely traded between characters. If they can be made to be like Augments, like they should, then that should be an account-wide feature that all characters can access. The Nth Metal was account bound. All characters worked together to level up that Artifact. We should be allowed to pass it around freely, hand it down to our alts, or use it however we wish. Double Nth-Metal XP weekends need to happen more frequently. I'm fine with them trying to subtly put them right before new Artifacts drop, as a way of getting impulse players to use all their stockpiles of Nth Metal before the items drop. But we should be seeing at least one Double Nth-Metal XP weekend per Episode. Nth Metal droprates need increased. It was increased previously when the cap was increased to 160. When the cap was increased to 200, the drop rate was not improved correspondingly. That is what creates that "it's barely moving" feel for so many players. If the drop-rate was in line with where it should be, then this false impression that purchasing Nth Metal was required is something that would be abated. Drop rates should be such that 1-200 now would take the same amount of time as 1-160 did previously. There are plenty of complaints to be made, and plenty of places where I feel the game needs to better treat it's customers. I'm not just some Daybreak Cheerleader. But there are tons of us, what I believe is the vast majority of players, who can run any content without resorting to some extreme thousand-dollar purchases for Artifacts the way a very small number of whales do. And when the vast majority of players do not experience this problem, I think it is more an issue of perception than it is reality.
The appeal of artifacts is not about obtaining more or better loot. It’s about being the best at what you do. It’s about that scoreboard. I don’t know or ever heard of anyone who levels up artifacts for loot. Loot was never a problem before artifacts. People who pay to quickly level up their artifacts to 200 do it for the sole purpose of being at the top of the scoreboard as often as possible and they don’t want to waste any time getting there. That’s what my scenario was based on, as I never mentioned anything about loot. Of course a frugal scoreboard chaser can eventually catch up free of charge, but that won’t erase the history of micro transactions by other players that put said player at a disadvantage in the first place. So paid advantage being temporary doesn’t matter one bit.
Playing non-event versions of episodes is P2W. Everyone should be waiting until the annual open episodes to catch up to just below the current episode. Bunch of tryhards too good to wait a year to spend the currency they earned right before it gets phased into sourcemarks. Older episodes are only old content by then to those P2Winners, their mere presence alone on a non-event Scoreboard proves that they paid and they might win while players who haven't paid can never win in the current episode.
In your scenario, everyone is beating all the content. No one fail in content. In the game plenty of players fail. I've watched tanks get crushed because their artifacts was low. Watched one healer do better than 2 because of the new artifact that stack and burst when up to 6 players drop below 40%. Dps who couldn't beat the dps check and had to switch to their mains with better artifacts. This is what actually is happening, not the scenario where everyone wins and get same loot. I've been in groups where they need 1 role, the role shout, and is ignored because someone got a bad experience with that player, or someone checked him and his/her artifacts were low. Last but not least, you lose on the scorecard. On the forums, coming 1st on the scorecard mean nothing. In game it's important. In most games the scorecard or parse are important. When you wiping, or can't get past the dps check, the scorecard tell you who lacking. Most times that player has wrong or low artifacts. That person is replaced and get nothing, while the player who has 200 artifacts get their gear. Who lost and won in that scenario? Everything isn't black or white like you make it out to be
I'm going to add to this, because I keep seeing the phrase thrown around on this forum infuriatingly incorrectly. Paywall: You can not progress without payment. You may go no further. Example, if you are premium or free to play, you can not play any of the episodes (sans the event) without buying them. You are behind a paywall. Artifacts are not and never were behind any kind of paywall.
I think it's more accurate to say it's as important as you make it. It doesn't give you any extra loot when you top the scoreboard. It doesn't give you better chances of rare loot when you top the scorecard. It doesn't give you a leg up in occasions where you roll for loot items when you top the scorecard. And so on and so forth. So it's tough to argue that it means much of anything when it can so easily be ignored and doesn't give you anything but bragging rights when you "win" that particular competition (even though not everyone actively participates in that kind of competition).
It's tough to take your feedback all too seriously on the matter, since you admittedly rarely run enough group content let alone Elite-raids for that matter, to know just how much of a difference it can really make. No matter how you chose to look at the whole phenomenon of "topping the scoreboard", it still comes down to maximization and as far as DPS'ing goes, the Artifact-system make a pretty clear difference on that regard. Have you ever been in an Elite-raid and experienced a DPS-check? The difference between low artifacts and maxed out artifacts in such a scenario is night and day. It comes to a point where it's no longer just "bragging rights" but more and more of a necessity to get through said piece of content. This stretches out between all roles, not just DPS'ing. Just because some of you managed to cruise through a piece of content and get loot at the end without maxed out artifacts, doesn't mean there's no issue.
