Artifacts and the absence of balance.

There are multiple aspects as to why.
A. Obviously there's a big element of monkey-see-monky-do and birds of a feather... There are A LOT of supposed elite players who act like they were born in to this world as experts in OP DCUO DPSing whereas I personally witnessed them not having a clue about how to do top tier damage, asking someone and then being told "go prec and here's the loadout to use". Fast forward a month or so and they're in their new leagues chat saying toxic crap like "I just doubled every other DPS in here, they're soooo trash". Like muffugga, you were that same "trash" last month you loadout copying bot!

B: When someone makes it their goal to be a top tier DPS and run in top groups, the precision path is by far the path of least resistance. It's astronomically easier to figure out what is needed to get there on the prec side whether it's getting a loadout from someone else or figuring it out yourself. And once you're there via precision, there's not much incentive to change if you're a "ends will always justify the means" kind of person.

C: As much as people make a deal out of tac-swapping, still very few trolls do, even in the elite circles. I know several might DPS's who are frustrated with trolls in elite circles always running cog and not the tetra. Some eventually say if ya can't beat em, join em. Personally I think the two artifacts need to be fused to eliminate this issue.

D: Elite content design and difficulty and even moreso Survival Mode is still mostly centered around single target damage and split-second timing mobility. SWe might be the most mobility-dependent content we've ever had so once again a premium is placed on the ability to cancel and tumble on a dime which of course flurry shot is 2nd to none in that regard. This is a content design issue and as much as I get falsely accused of lobbying to maintain the supposed precision damage dominance status quo, I've always campaigned for more creative ideas for elite and SM difficulty that highlight other types of skills.

E: The investment into artifacts is anywhere from solidly to astronomically more on the might side in order to do top tier damage, depending on power and frequency of power changing. And speaking of changing powers, a lot of players go through phases where they want to heal or tank or troll as far as the support role which obviously requires a power change. As a might DPS, that might require 2-3 new/different artifacts to do the same kind of damage. But if they're prec, that trans, Strat, Grim and EoG will transfer over seamlessly.

You say all the top leagues/best players are prec but in reality it's most, but not all. Every top league has at least a few players who are and have mostly always been might DPS's and they keep up just fine. Most top leagues pretty much require league members to be dual-role (at least on main toon) which means you gotta be right there with everybody else damage wise when DPSing. There's no "he's might so we give him a pass on crappy damage". Nope, gotta make the cut regardless. Hell, Obsidian Chill mainly does support roles, is never ever ever prec, always changes his power and yet he's almost always right there with the prec sweats every time I've ran with him and he DPS'd. I'd mention other players too but I don't want to cause them any unwanted attention. But the might DPS guru's are out there. Trust me.

Honestly, I sometimes strongly disagree with what I've read by Deity Supreme, but not here. I don't think there's a prec/might imbalance at all. The best DPS I run with somewhat consistently is Fire might and slaps everyone in AoE and single target. This is against Elec and Gadgets prec users, with art swapping trolls and green spam heals. Now I do think some powers have an advantage over others (mostly talking prec, CB and stealth/suppressor-mine clips), but overall the potential damage of all powers is pretty close.

Now, you could argue that prec is imbalanced within itself because some weapons are clearly better than others, but that's different. I personally don't think this is particularly problematic, since literally everyone has access to the actually good weapons. It does kill variety, but it is fair for everyone.

Back to OP's original topic... the only thing I'd say is really problematic with artifacts is how alt-unfriendly they are, because of how much time/money goes into maxing one out. But they add an additional layer to the game which to me makes the game more interesting. An MMO always has some aspect of a long term grind. Most games it's gear (item level), but in DCUO it's SP and now arts as well.

Your friend's specific artifacts are meant to help support roles do damage, so there's no issue there. Battle supports have been a thing since forever. A solid battle support won't be doing more than like ~1/3 of a solid DPS's damage though in a relevant raid. The fact your friend outdamaged the actual DPS's in the group doesn't mean much without knowing about those other DPS's. They could be 120 SP with 60 arts new to the game.

Are arts hard to balance and/or inherently unbalanced? I wouldn't say so, since like prec weapons, literally everyone can make use of them. Trans/Strat/Grim/EoG/Tetra/Cog have pretty much the same effectiveness on every power. Maybe some powers aren't as good as using some niche ones like Lernaea's or La Mort, but they still open up playstyles and room for experimentation. And if they do have some niche interactions with only one power then they should be easier to balance.

As for what you've mentioned about reworking powers - I agree that it can feel unfair to players who bought those powers because they liked exactly how those powers were. I will also say that before the revamp, they did have the time to enjoy those powers they bought. And though those powers changed after the revamp, I trust that the core of those powers did not change. The only power I remember from before revamp is Nature, and as far as I can tell they did keep the core idea of stacking DoTs/HoTs.

TL;DR - Your friend is probably just a vastly more skilled player than those DPS's. Arts are part of the long-term grind (which most MMOs have) and allow for different playstyles and experimentation. They're fair since literally everyone can use them. Also most powers are pretty balanced IMO, along with prec/might.

That did kind of pass me by. Also what TheLorax referred to.

I was wrong.

But you said "In my opinion, balance is as close as it's ever been, between powers"....which is a complete lie. Yes, the revamp was the closest we ever came to balance (which was a pathetically low bar to reach anyways). But they are still wildly out of balance. Let me ask you this, other than precision. can a ice DPS keep up with a gadgets, electric, or munition? That was a retorical question, because the obvious answer is no. All stats/SP/gear/artifacts/allies being equal a ice ST DPS can't come close to a fire ST dps. Munition/eletric AoE will dwarf a quantum DPS in DPS. And keep in mind I'm talking about might DPS. Precision DPS gives these powers a break and brings them up but the might aspect of a lot of these powers is atrocious.

And as I said, its your opinion NOT a fact. And the FACT is that the powers are wildly out of balance for might DPS and some have to use precision as crutch to keep up.

Also just because many people share your opinion doesn't make it right, it just those people wrong too.

And you're completely wrong. I literally have 3 dozen different builds across multiple power sets. A few of these are precision based. I know what I'm talking about when I say Precision is OP. Nowhere did I say it was leaps and bounds above might but it performs better than a similarly equipped might spec'd variant. This is just facts. And I'm coming from years and years of experience and multiple builds and variants.

Being op literally means over powered. As in leaps and bounds better than other builds lol. That’s literally what OP means lol.

I’ve seen many players who have “years of experience” yet overlook very common things. Not saying you do. But it’s true. How can prec be OP when there are a number of powers that can beat precision as might? As someone said in another post. “All it takes is 1 person to be able to do it”. If even one person can find a loadout or set up to put perform prec it means that it is possible and the only thing stopping others from doing so is knowledge. Might can beat prec. It’s happened many times. I literally do it all the time.

Today I put dpsed an electric prec dps as atomic might. If prec was as op as people claim than that should be impossible. But it’s not impossible because it literally happened. And no. A similarly specced prec dps won’t automatically put dps a might dps. That’s not a fact. A fact is that a better skilled player can out dps a less skilled player even with less tools. 2 equally skilled players will be mainly determined by factors outside of skill level. IE better set up. Better set up is more than just prec vs might. It has to do with what arts they have or what power they are. Or even who gets screw over by rng less. Look at SWe. One player can go the whole fight without ever being turned and asked to hit cogs or be targeted for the beam where you have to block. While the other dps gets all the mechanics none stop. Or even look at the alert. One can be targeted by spore transformation over and over, or be targeted by the red circle. While the other never gets targeted.

Being out dpsed isn’t just about prec vs might as some like to keep making it out to be.

I appreciate your opinion. Keep in mind also, that I did mention there are strengths to different powers. Can a fire aoe come close to electric aoe? - Absolutely not! Can electric ST match fire ST, NOPE!

Knowing the strengths of powers, in relation to their BASE usage (without artifacts/etc), and play that role to it's strengths, and you'll see what I meant by 'close.'
Do we really want every single power to have the exact same strengths? I sure hope not, it eliminates the diversity of the UNIQUENESS of each power. Most people have no idea what the function is of each power in it's BASE form. Knowing their strengths, shows that they are close. If we measure skill by ability to be equal, then we have not discovered skill.

A) I'm not reading the whole thread.
B) I'm not commenting on artifacts balances here.

With that said, you completely misunderstood what the Stats Revamp was about, so I'll attempt to break it down so others can understand.

In GU 47, May 2015, they introduced Stat Flattening and CR Differential. Which essentially created a scenario to being just a number, in this case, your CR, and compare it to your enemies to see how much damage you deal and take. This also created a problem with damage creep being on overdrive. (Which was ironic, since Stat Flattening was to correct this.) This prevented the developers from being able to produce complex content, since they also needed to sell content that can be completed. It was a problem. (Not to be confused with what also released during that time, which was Monthly content, where they did not have the manpower to shell out 2 pieces of content each month, which compounded with the problem with damage.)

Fast forward to Avair taking over Loche's job. He was the one that created the whole Augments system we know today. (Built on the artifacts fortification system.)

Basically, what the Stats Revamp was intended to do was reintroduce stats to the players. (#statsmatter) Stats didn't exist anymore in the sense we had before GU47 and today. They did a test, what would happen if CR Differential was just removed before and it was a joke test run. lol

So, to try and recreate the stats, they also came up with a "formula" for how damage, healing, and power consumption worked. If it did "X" then it would have "Y" power consumption. If it had a control effect, it would do "Z" less damage. And so on. This is probably how you thought it was balancing. The problem with this is that there are a few outliers that got past this system that throws things out of wack. Also, and this was voiced by me and others during the testing phase, power creep still is there. At the time, the powers "appeared" to be closer in damage, but we said that all this did was reset the starting line. It didn't change the disparity. It also didn't account for new Artifacts that were introduced later. Which is another balancing act. So now, the damage potentials of powers, there are clear winners and losers and some just in the middle.

In the end, the Stats Revamp wasn't intended to "balance" the powers, but normalize the powers potentials. It did it. Of course they also later changed those rules. (Poor Nature.)

Lot's of straw man arguments that I don't really care enough to point out. I nearly have all powersets with 4 armories. 3 dps and 1 support. That's not even including all the other builds I've tried that don't work out. I test out different builds on nearly a daily basis. My Main has 12 armories that are different powers and 10 200 artifacts spread out over their armories.

And the actual argument isn't Prec vs Might. It's Brawl - Shuriken and Dual Wield - Flurry versus might or even versus other weapons. And the argument also isn't about what arts you have or not or what circumstances happen in an instance. It's stupid to point out that different arts affect performance. THAT'S A GIVEN. It's about the basic damage output of those two Prec attacks. If I want a high dps run with little to no thinking I'll run those combo's and no other weapon combo. Groups get the brawling and single target gets the dw. Pretty basic.

Yes. Might can beat Prec. I've done it numerous times as well. But when we do compare when everything is equal. Braw and DW Prec has a big advantage in 1. ease of use 2. speed and safety 3. base damage without arts factored in

I can take a basic no art toon with those two weapons attacks and outperform nearly any other no art might power. So it's not about boosting the dozens of other builds to perform as well it's about balancing the powers and attacks to even level with everything else. It's about heavy payout for little risk or time. And most people don't realize this but that's a big factor in why those 2 and ONLY those two are being used so heavily. Huge dps payout for very little time. Both those core combo's require two button presses for insane damage. Other weapon combo's require more buttons or more time to pull off their core combo's. This has a very big affect on damage output.

If they were really as balanced as you seem to imply they wouldn't be the only weapon combo's people use.

The definition of OP is up for semantics. Let me clarify in this situation. For the current Prec meta's I would suggest no more than a 5-8% reduction. For the other weapons I would actually suggest a boost by more than that. Bring 2 hand back to it's glory days, etc.

If you want easy mode than that’s not prec lol. Yes prec is easier to “master” but ease of use let’s not kid our selves. Might powers that are 1234 are far easier to use. Want to talk about ease of use than that’s munitions. That’s the easiest form of damage in the game. If you want to talk potential than that again is different.

And the definition of OP is not up to semantics lol. It has an actual meaning. It’s not about strong manning. It’s about numbers. Mathematically speaking might can put up as much damage as brawling and dw. Mathematically speaking, might can also beat brawling and dw. Mathematically speaking, there are more bad might dps than prec dps because of options.

You're kidding right? Prec is so easy mode it's not even funny. It's literally the same attack for 90% if the raid. I've almost fallen asleep while in Prec mode and I was still top 2. It's utter easy mode. Buff - weapon combo, rinse/repeat while blindfolded.

You mention Munitions. Yes. I agree munitions is an OP 1234 powerset. Prec dw and braw are literally the same. How is "weapon buff, weapon combo, clip of choice" any different than 1234?

If fire is overperforming most powersets in 90% of instances it doesn't matter it's by 10% or 90% it's still overpowered in comparison to other powersets. Period. You may not agree but that's YOUR definition.

Disclaimer for anyone new to Precision: this is the worst mindset to approach this playstyle with.

No valid or informative argument. Nothing useful for discussion at hand.

OP literally means overpowered. It’s what OP stands for. It’s not about my definition or your definition. It’s the literal definition of the term. But when I mentioned in a past post that player skill has to be taken to account, you incorrectly dismissed it.

If prec truly was OP as you claimed than You would not be able to put perform it as might regardless of skill level. For example.

If a prec rotation did a dps of 100k at max performance and might did 90k at max performance (max performance being the optimal build with the optimal user input than it would mean that prec is out performing might by 10k dps.

However if might actually had 100k at max performance yet a person was only utilizing at a suboptimal and only getting 90k, than they are actually even and the might dps is not utilizing it correctly. Why should a play style be nerfed just because other play style users are not capable of using it at max potential? If 2 play styles both have a equal output but one is used by someone not using it correctly than why should a nerf or buff be done? This is the same thing as “I’m not too dps so nerf everything until I’m top dps”. That’s not how things should be adjusted.

As for prec being easy. I have seen a lot of terrible prec dps. I’ve put dpsed maxed prec dps on baby toons. So I guess prec needs a buff, by your logic. If you clip to early you get no damage. If you clip to slowly than you lose dps. A good prec dps can easily double a bad prec dps. I know this because I’ve done it many times.

Yes. But you're creating a situation where the user is at fault and only seeing that option. That's not the case in the game. In the game it's the second situation you described. Prec has a max potential of 100k in the game and might has a max potential of 90k with a FEW exceptions. So to balance the game you would need to lower the damage of the high outliers, Which is what dw and brawl are in comparison to other fps in the game.

You're saying it's one way but in actuality is the exact opposite.

There is no “but a few exceptions”. If one person is able to do the 100k damage it means that others can do it too. The only thing stopping them is use skill level. If precision is as strong and easy as you claim than anyone one could switch to prec and be top dps day one. But that’s not how it works. There are some terrible prec dps out there. Just like there are some terrible might dps out there too. The reason you see more bad night dps is because prec has literally 0 options.

If that’s the case than let’s nerf every might ability in the game except for 6 powers within each power. That way all might dps are forced to use the optimal loadouts or do crap damage. Than you’d see might and prec be more evened out

Prec is difficult for me because I don't have the prestidigitation or a computer macro installed *cough cough* to keep the combos going.

Prec is very easy to learn. That's its nature. You can literally teach a newbie the combo's in a matter of an hour or two. Stick him in a raid and have him nowhere near the bottom. Give him another week to round out his load out and personal playstyle and he's gravy. The CORE of Prec dps is just repetitive button presses for 90% of any content.

You misunderstood the few options. It's not about few people. It's about few might power combos that can hang with Prec on equal footing. Skill wasn't a factor in the argument. For example if you take an equally skilled Earth user his only option to keep up is Jackhammer and that's a very very situational power. Sorc pretty much only has pet build. Normal sorc powers animation is way to slow to keep up with burst damage of brawl and dw.

Listen to what this guy says at 25 seconds in...


Load out is identical.

It's like you're arguing for the sake of arguing now. Why would nerfing Might be a solution to keeping balance? That makes no sense. Or is that another strawman argument? Your reasoning is so hard to follow. You're saying prec has no options (which I actually agree with) but then you counter with an argument about forcing might down the same path. Why? Why do that to all Might when a simple balancing of what's actually over performing (OP ) would make a thousand times more sense? You want more options? Sure I'm all for it. Let's make other weapons viable. That will give more options. But that's not the argument. Right now DW an Brawl are overperforming (OP) by about 5-8%. Balance the weapons properly. There's a reason why 95% of Prec users use the same weapons and practically all the same loadout. Because of the performance.

The problem is super speed and not weapon mastery. Super speed is far and away better than any movement mode.

Brawling and dual wield masteries are best for DPS/role because of their range aspect. As a DPS you shouldn't be face camping the bosses but staying far away as typically you are a glass cannon. If more tanks used weapon masteries they'd be using shield and bow masteries but instead they stat into health and dominance (restoration for fire) like a tank should, and typically stat one handed for ease of use and lunging ability. The clipping ability of superspeed, cool down, and overall ability are things that need adjusting. Granted, my league mate has been experimenting with abilities in sorcery with less than a second cool down and has been avoiding using superspeed whirling dervish, consistent as the top dps.