Tier scaling instead of CR scaling

Thats the whole issue that this thread is concerned about, when you are below effective CR and your dps is worthless and you are shooting out information that we already know lol?

The only problem the scoreboard detects is ones ego. Did you guys struggle in that raid or did you complete it with no issue, was healing a problem? do you need a scoreboard to rectify that issue or do you need a better healer? Was power a problem in that instance? do you need a scoreboard to rectify that issue or do you need a better controller.

Point is the only thing the scoreboard is good for is to show people HOW MUCH of xyz they did, it doesn't offer any solution to an issue that you can not determine while playing the game.

I find the whole thing utterly stupid. Im sorry Devs but usually I try to see things from your point of view, but I just cant this time. What annoys me the most about this whole thing is the numbers.

Lets take the T6 duo, Port of Paradise, into scope.
I use to be able to solo it no problem if someone needed the crate feat, or if my random partner was AFK or whatever the case was. The total damage in there was about 650k. That was good. But now, just because my gear is stronger than the content, I now deal out over 1.5mil? What happens when I walk through one of my league mates when they become of CR? I'll tell you what happens.

Here is what happens to newly able players when they do new content to them, with old content with me.
This is in the T5 Duo, Knightsdome Arena. At the end of the entire duo, I had over 2.4mil damage out. Im just saying, its absurd. Why should I have to struggle taking out t5 enemies with my stronger equipment? Isnt that the fun in getting better gear? That you can finally go back to older content which you struggled in and finally give out a butt whooping that they deserve?

Now in no way am I saying that I am too weak to handle any of this, But what happens if I bring in a toon that is specifically spec'ed into one role and doesnt have much of the DPS role. All the stuff gets buffed to my CR, but I wont do much damage to them. Also, you guys happened to take away some of the appeal of doing lower level content. I use to level my alt's on the basic guarantee that there will be a few 114's (Before HoP2) already queued up just for poops and giggles (Censoring myself). But now that the appeal of marks is gone, what is the point? And especially if everything is going to ramped up to be a battle for a 114, what chance do the people who actually need the stuff stand?

It use to be fun to go into FOS3 and solo, but honestly, now that everything is being ramped up, I dont even want to attempt it anymore. I guess we can no longer say "we solo'd this raid" or "me and _________ duo'd this raid". Sorry Devs, but you took a big chunk of fun out of DCUO with that update.

No. I do not remember what CR enemies are in necro, but you are in somewhat of an even playing field I believe. To beat a 115 player in necro, it just comes down to stats and skill. Now I will admit right away, there are some buggy powers and you won't beat those.

The issue I have with the complaint is just that everyone is shouting out "CR is all that matters", which is in fact wrong. Until you are even with the enemy, CR is what matters, yes. When you are as strong as the enemy, stats/skill matter. You CAN manage the content under CR in order to obtain effective CR, so I do not see what the problem is.

Not consistence in the tiers ! T7 is 2 easy don't even sweat a duo ,the bounty or raids once mechanics is figured it's easy ! But t4 and t5 are super hard ? Im down with not soloing them and being a challenge but shouldn't be harder then t7! I'm agreeing with Tier scaling is what was needed ! I think most long time players that worked hard and spent money on skill points are disappointed ! Also balance the powers please ! Get these correct and the game be wonderful !

Cr is king and the difference between tiers is 9, but it has always been this way. Nothing has changed at all. The devs can do anything, and some people will try to explain it away with severly flawed logic. I just literally switched my gadget troll to dps in a duo, and was hitting 7-10k emp in troller 117 troll gear, but it has always been that way

CR is all that matters though. CR not mattering is the exception not the rule. When the next DLC comes, guess what will matter again (even to the people who are 120+)? Answer: CR.
It will be an endless cycle of CR being the determinant then CR being not the determinant. This CR being a determining factor in damage in/out WILL forever plague this game. CR shouldn't be used to determine damage in/out, that's why we have Precision/Might/Defense/Health right? To determine damage in/out

Kaiser I totally agree with you. This whole stat flattening and CR-scaling has went far too crazy. Of course people with lower CR are able to beat people with higher CR. But what you forget is, these are different skilled players, maybe with different powers, maybe with different approaches on how they want to complete the content. The lower CR guy maybe has an attitude like "now I will beat this high CR guy no matter what it costs" and the high CR guy might had an attitude like "ah nice evening run here, get some loot, all chilled all cool". So it is no PROVE to say yeah there are people with low CR who beat people with high CR, so it's possible and the whole problem about the CR-damage-scaling isn't so bad as Kaiser and other people are saying. I had time last week to compare a lot and to experience different raids and DPSes with different CRs and yes, damage IS nearly only related to CR now. If you have 2 equal skilled players, same power, the one with 3 CR more will always have much more damage than the other DPS.

I totally agree that within a specific CR-range only the stats should count not the CR.

To be of value for your raid group as a DPS (or even tank) you have to get to some higher CR as soon as possible. Regarding the fact that you get absolutely NO marks in the older content from one CR to another (116 - 117) it is really bad that damage in and out is soo much related to CR because to get highter CR you only have 2 Raids and that's nearly all.

In other words: There are a lot of people who have obviously some money and reset a raid 5x a day or more often to get all the maximum gear within a few days. I saw CR126 guys on EU PC (which is the server with the fewest player count of all) after 2 or 3 days after the DLC was out. Now (5 days after DLC) the TOP 100 CR list starts at CR124 (which is equivalent to full CR 108 vendor gear). I saw people looking for DPSes CR125+ for HH. THIS IS RIDICOULUS! Where is the fun? People who want to keep up with others are now more than ever forced to reset like the money guys do. In the past having all new gear clearly gave you an advantage but not as it does now.

And you have ONLY the new content to get your CR up which is total fail in my eyes. At least give us marks for one tier below content! It doesn't have to be 100% of the marks it could be only 50% of the marks then. But no marks at all in combination with the higher importance of CR is a really bad combination which ruins the game.

Really I know so many people (even in my league) who are this time really at the edge of quitting the game completely. Believe me or not, but as it is now is less fun as it was ever before.

CR mattered before GU 47, and if you don't believe it, you weren't paying attention. You're stats didn't magically increase independent of your CR. As you increased your stats through gear and modding, your CR increased. SP gave you bonus stats and crits. How do you not see that?

Main difference now is that all gear is considered fully modded when calculating CR. Therefore, mods, like SP did before and still do, give you bonus stats and crits.

Gear and CR have always, and still do, go hand in hand. Before GU 47, the stats increased exponentially with increasing CR. Now, the stats increase linearly with increasing CR, and relative CR scaling gives us a similar exponential feel.

They. Go. Hand. In. Hand. I don't know that I can explain it any simpler than that.

Was CR used in calculating damage in/out before GU47?

Indirectly, yes. As your CR increased, your stats increased, and your damage out increased. In addition, higher CR NPCs had increasing armor piercing, meaning they ignored greater amounts of your armor, meaning they did more damage to you.

That's a loaded question but I'm going to bite. The answer is yes. CR was used to scale stats exponentially and those stats scaled damage linearly. Now CR increases stats linearly, those stats scale damage linearly and then CR scales that damage exponentially. The calculations got shifted around but they are still there.

Before: exponential scale -> linear scale -> extra rules like power cost increases and armor penetration; stats and damage numbers inflate in higher content
Now: linear scale -> exponential scale -> linear scale; power cost increases are a general rule now and not an exception, armor penetration is gone completely, stats don't inflate anymore and damage numbers only inflate in content that is significantly lower than the character's CR

The problem is that people really don't like the way it is now. Also, "when you are as strong as the enemy" what about the time before that? Why do you get a penalty for having a lower combat rating? How about just basing everything on stats and leaving out random penalties? Like it was before?

You might not see a problem, but I see a major problem. The problem being that I personally preferred the way it was before. It wasn't necessarily perfect, but it was definitely superior in my opinion.

Kind of jumping in out of nowhere without proper context, but whatever!

You seem to be missing one little important thing: it's completely irrelevant if they went hand in hand before or not. People really don't like the way it is now. It doesn't matter how many similarities you can point out, that won't change anything.

So in theory as it stands now, a player in fully modded item level 102 gear for instance would have higher stats than a player in item 108 gear with beta mods.... I'm assuming the player in the vendor gear is still gonna hit harder due to damage CR mitigation, although I'm using extremes this doesn't seem right. ( I apologize in advance if this point has already been raised and discussed )

No it's just wrong. If I have a higher CR I don't need any mods except alpha mods for the crits in shoulders/head and chest/legs and then I will get EVERY other DPS (even if he has Nitro/Flex cola, full t7 mods) who is 3+ CR below me.

In the end mods are not important anymore (except you do a damage battle between 2 same-cr guys). SP are nor important anymore (except for the crits).

Just go out and have a look, open your eyes! You can't compete anymore with a good DPS who has a higher CR than you.

Just look at the damage-in scaling. You get huge damage in when you are lower CR and if your CR increases you see how fast these numbers get lower and lower. Same thing goes for damage out.

I mean look at the gear, pieces give you like 20 might more here, 10 precision more there... what is that compared to 9300? nothing. I have many characters and some had much lower stats than others. My fire tank for example had nearly the same defense and health as one of our league main fire tanks. But my fire tank was always far behind from the stats. Same goes for Controllers and Healers. The differences they had in the stats were nearly wiped out. And there is a big inconsistence in all that CR-scaling-thing. Restoration and Vitalization don't scale with your CR. You can be a CR111 troll and you can EASILY troll a CR126 group. So trolls and heals now have an easy job and are not forced to FARM there gear as fast as possible in order to be of value for the group but DPSes and tanks have to increase their CR as fast as possible or they are far behind.

At least acknowledge that this inconsistence is making no sense at all.

And by the way, what would be the problem with Kaisers suggestion that CR scaling only happens from tier to tier and not within a tier? Ah yes then the stats would have to be rise exponential again.

Anyway, WHY THE HELL WAS STAT FLATTENING NEEDED? CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME? I couldn't here people in my league or in other leagues known to me here saying: "ah the stat system is ****, they should do something about it!" no one said something like this. It was a good working system. No one had complains about how you progress in game with your gear, CR, mods and everything. So why was that all necessary in the first place? To avoid having 100k health some day? WHO CARES how big the numbers would get?

That's the point. It worked and no one actually saw a problem. Now most of the people I know SEE a problem and some of them are so pissed off again with the changes (no marks in lower content, Damage based on CR) that they think about to quit. I don't see the reason to change fundamental things in a way that it upsets so many people. You, Daybreak Games, should have an interest in keeping your player base and increasing it, instead of trying to suck everybody dry as long as you can. So in my opinion do something which increases the fun. More fun means more people with a positive attitude towards the game and that means more potencial new people who try the game. Instead I only can see less fun, being more and more forced to use money to be able to keep up.

Yeah, we all know higher CR = higher stat, thus determining damage in/out. Higher CR = Higher Stats is still the case, but the stat increase from 100 gear to 102 gear to 108 gear to 110 gear isn't as pronounced as it was in the past. They had to make higher CR players still do more damage than lower CR, so they have to scale damage in somehow, thus the scaling.
CR has become an actual statistic, instead of just an arbitrary number that determines what tier you are currently on.

Before, we can cover lower stats with popping soders, modding properly, getting SP. We often times relied on our stats from SP when we are lower CR as it's supposed to give us a significant boost in stats, but now SP/stats seem to not matter at all UNTIL you get equal with the NPC you're fighting, then it pretty much don't matter still since when you equal the NPC you're fighting, you don't need the stat boost for your SP.

This all seems academic to me. Comparing CR to stats is just getting hung up over one number versus another. It's all arbitrary anyway.

Better gear gets you better results. That hasn't changed and that's the core of it. What has changed is that better gear matters more now than before. Better gear can overcome mod disparity. I actually like that. I like starting out with 100 gear modded with VI Experts and feel like it is worth my efforts to equip that shiny new 102 piece, then that new 106 piece, then that 108 piece, then that 110 piece. I like that I don't have to fret over not equipping blue gear versus missing it with top mods. I like that a lot. Better gear also overcomes FOTM power set disparity. Given perpetual power set imbalance in this game, this is better than perpetually hoping they'll get it right in the next 12 months. I don't think they ever will. Better gear can overcome skill disparities too. I'm on the fence about that. DCUO just got its noob tube via Quantum DPS and this system. Given some complaints about lack of skilled players, need for kicking, elitism, and need of a tutorial...I guess this system is one way to address all that.

Exactly. Better gear just trumps all the min/maxing that a lot of us did. Removed all the intricacies that pushed your character to be better than others. I know that this is a thing now, but I still don't like it.