So, I'd like to discuss this data...rationally, please

I have been following this thread. Loving the feedback.

Can someone explain a few things?

Why would adds skew the data? Some Powers in nature are better at AOE situations, some are better at single target. The fact that only bosses are being taken into account baffles me (mostly single target scenarios).

Why such a small sample size (top ten players), instead of a wider sample that reflects the broader community?

Thanks, but this was clarified for me already and it is something else. The AM data in the chart is hybrid, AM plus WM. Which makes perfect sense from what I've seen personally. Once they show a third column of just AM I imagine it will be a lot lower than the current "AM" field for Rage.

As Rage I use both. The numbers when I only use one are less impressive,

Adds can just be burned down in a few seconds, some powers like Nature or Elec take longer for their AM to set up therefore giving burst the pure advantage.

A sample of your highest damaging players offers you a true test of the max damage potential, taking the guy who just switched yesterday to Celestial isn't going to give you a better view of what that power can do.

I agree, they really need a larger sample to work with.

I think this one chart is only based off one player from each power set.

My Interpretation of the chart:

This is how I interpret what Spytle has said and this could be completely wrong but I think this is how the chart is made:

For ease of this I am only going to use one powerset and it is electricity and my time table is only going to be a week.
*Disclaimer* No time table has been confirmed but I do not think the dev team had these logs until GU 36 but at that time there were no T6 bosses so I am guessing the real time table will be from AF1 until right before fire’s AM was released.

Monday-NOT AGAlN was the highest DPS for AM with 5200 DPS and the highest for WM with 4700 DPS.
Tuesday-Max Volt AM at 5200 and Aqua Surge WM at 4900
Wednesday-Awesome Mechanic AM 5000 and Zim WM at 4300
Thursday-Jamie AM 5100 and Nekron 99 WM 4100
Friday-Bast10n AM 5000 and MetaMax75 WM 4500
Saturday-pitbulb3 AM 5000 and MentosTroll WM 4600
Sunday- Burnt AM 5200 and Seth Grey WM 4400

These numbers are indicative of what the chart is displaying. These players were this best with the electricity powerset on the respective day listed above. The average damage for WM is around 4500 and the AM is around 5100. I also choose electricity as it is one or the other AM or WM. As far as I know there is no hybrid loadouts. Also, you can see the player changes daily, but some days and some powers it may be the same player over and over again.

Once again this is how I intrepid the chart and maybe Spytle or any other dev can confirm or tell me I am completely confused and go back to the drawing board.

*Additional Disclaimer* All names in this post are just forum posters responding in this thread. This is only example data I completely made up. If I left you out I am truly sorry just grabbed names as I scrolled by.

Very true. Of course, leaving out adds ends up not accurately reflecting real game play. What you end up with is balance based on one facet of the game (boss fights) with the rest imbalanced toward burst. Fact is that not all powersets can squeeze out the same type of burst damage, even with WM+crit. I don't think you can ignore that completely. I also don't think sampling the highest damagers of each powerset is a good measure, especially when you don't have a completely accurate impression of how that damage is even being produced.

Actually, I think we are in agreement then.

My second statement mirrors your opening, at least I'm pretty sure it does. What i am saying is don't throw the baby out with the bath water. We need to label these correctly, but the data itself is fine when applied properly.

Appreciate the feedback on the other front.

Not every power set is meant to be burst.

Data show what everyone been saying that not trying to nerf everything.

Game is the most balance it ever been. Using just power without WM is silly along with only using WM. To do max damage you want a hybrid were you are using both WM and powers.

There are still some powers that needs love, like quantum.

With the 60% mod it going to level the playing field even more. Devs i wouldnt change a THING! Nice work!

Here is an issue I have with this chart. The new changes for fire went live GU39, july 22nd. The new HoP T6 raid bosses came out Aug 6th with the new DLC. So this chart is just based off of anything prior to Halls of Power that are t6 and SM, right?

And if that is the case then this chart only includes the two T6 duos and TD (the 4 man alert), and SM. And then my next question is of these instances what bosses are you using to gather this data? Because most, if not all of that content, except for lets say SM, was mele'able, which again.... can skew the data.

Can we see a chart from lets say this past week?

Sorry for all the questions I am just confused a bit on when exactly this data was taken and from what exactly.

How old-ish is this data?

Speaking as someone who utilises sorcery's AM+weapon clipping, and knows 2 people which are elec and nature respectively doing the same thing, the AM numbers for those 3 look believable to me, but it's oldish data right? My own parses show as a bit higher then the top shown for sorcery with the new gear. But man... dat mana drain ;x

For Sorc and Earth is dmg classified as AM if you are DPS and have tank pet out but using WM or is AM only when the DPS pet is out? I ask because I have yet to play with a player using the DPS pet that does more dmg then WM alone or WM with tank pet.

If it is with the DPS pet, I want to find these people and ask what they are doing because it would mean that I am clearly doing something wrong with my Sorc and Earth dps characters even though I am top or 2nd in almost every t6 I do.

Look at the vid in my sig- the 18:53 one I'm using weapon clipping and the dps pet as opposed to WM, look at the scorecard at the end.

I will stop talking about how awesome I am and focus on the discussion of the issues seen..

I will start with Nature...

Mepps: Is this a Typo or is Nature correct that WM out does the AM mechanic? If the AM mechinc is not out doing WM, does WM possibly include tha tability of Nature using terror PI?

Now Hard Light

Out of all the powers AM and WM mechanics, it clearly shows that HL is the most balanced powerset in game. Neither WM or AM really show one is greater than the other. If developers are stating the the powerset AM is to be superior to WM; HL needs some work. If so, please fix.

Celestial and Rage: Refer to the question about HL and if a powerset AM is to be higher/better than the WM. If so, these are working properly and may require minimum adjustments...maybe...

Just wanted to say thanks for all you guys do for the game... I apologize for the aggressive comments that my peers post however it seems they can't control themselves... Think of them as having emotional turrets... Now to ensure this comment stays on topic... I'm really excited to get quantums AM... It's my favorite power set... However dps wise it is really weak... It's hard enough keeping up in dps using the bow in raids when everyone else is spamming handblasters... Lol...

Again keep up the good work!!

That little thumbs up Spytle gave your phoenix wings during the Keynote Q&A was pretty awesome, though.

I'm actually fine with that, Spytle, as I'm not much of a scoreboard chaser anyway. My competition is usually with myself. My point was that is likely one factor that underlies some of the perceived in-game imbalance, relative to the data you provided. So, say you have a dungeon crawl raid where all the DPS powersets' AMs and WM+crits are, in fact, balanced. The non-burst powersets will still fall behind due to the intervening adds between boss fights. Granted, that's less of an issue with WM now available, but it still exists. Not everyone chases the scoreboard, but some in the community do and also will exclude due to damage out stats, fair or not. Not sure how or if this needs to be addressed. If you somehow buffed the non-burst AMs to make them gain in boss fights, there would still be imbalance in some content. I guess the take-home is that there is no perfect balance to something as complex as this. I do appreciate that you're all trying to get close, though.

The thing is Remz, I've seen it first hand and know people in game who don't have problems whatsoever keeping up even on trash with the dot stacking am's and no WM whatsoever, granted they're exceptional and have a very aggresive and "spammy" playstyle but it is still possible.

I find it hard to believe that it is better to use just rage combos compared to WM/Rage Combos ............