Work In Progress: Weapon Mastery (Updated)

Has any consideration been made as to how any of this will play out in PvP. From my perspective Damage Roles have an obvious increase in damage potential. I just don't see how this will help the Support Roles in Survivability.

You know Rock, Paper Scissors. This looks more like Rock, paper, dinomyte.

You probably mentioned it somewhere, but im curious as to what you would want in its place?

I agree that a power reduction doesnt do really much of anything for Tanks and dont really get the through process behind that...If a tank is going to come out of block a lot of times, they are going to take a ton of damage, particularly if they are going to pull off an extended weapon combo...In return, id imagine that youd get a shield or something that would make coming out of block and going to town with those combos worth the risk, not a power reduction on your next power...Especially considering Tanks probably use the least power out of all the roles

Yes, but that's still not the point I'm trying to make. I don't know how I can explain it any clearer than I have, but Ive been awake for 30ish hours and sometimes what makes sense in my head doesn't come out properly.

Let me get a good nights sleep, play around with it some more tomorrow, and come back to it. Can I give you my thoughts on it after I do this?

I do not think it is write for cast time moves and DOTs to not benefit from this system. For example Only melee loadouts would benefit greatly from this with Fire. The only range moves that take advantage of this are Fireball, Meteor, and Detonate.

I think the problem with it is not this time deal. Time is not the issue. The issue is: As a tank, WM will hardly effect me. Why does a tank need reduced power costs? We are already not using much power to begin with. As a Tank if I'm EVER low on power, its because I'm spamming all the weak self-heals on my loadout in panic mode. And If im turtle mode(lack of better word), it not like I even need power cost reduction. It's a catch 22 at least for the tank class because in panic mode(which you should be blocking through anyway), I'm not gonna be stupid and get out of black to do some WM combos. And If in turtle mode, I'll probably have the most power in the group anyway.

I can see your argument when it comes to healers. I can see your argument when it comes to Trolls. But when it comes to tanks, a class that inherently doesn't use much power than I can't see it. Maybe a Rage tank can benefit because of Rage mode management. But as a Fire Tank, when I'm not blocking, I'm one of the weakest tank classes in the game.

How bout this, If I'm doing WM as a tank, its because it looks cool as hell, and fits my character. Not because I think the reduced power cost is worth it because in all honesty It's not. The tank class doesn't benefit from reduced power cost at the same value as the other roles. We simply don't use that much power imo.

I plan on making a thread on this on some point. Do it in the morning because It won't get that much attention so Late at night I think

Oh darn. you said what I said much simpler than I said it

i honestly dont know what id prefer. i was intrigued by what was previously described as a buff depending on whatever tank power you were. but even then it really depended on what that buff would be and how big of a buff it was. and even then it couldnt be something SO worthwhile it was unbalanced in pvp. the previous dominance buff would have been super nice for fire and rage, and less nice, but still useful of course for earth then ice. but it was something. and like you said, would that buff really be useful for, say, fire or earth, who mostly need to stay in block to get the max potential from their tank mechanics? probably not.

a shield would be something, but i think it would have to work differently than the way shields work now for tanks. they work great for ice because of their high defense mitigating some of the damage before it even gets to the shield's hit points. earth even would be nice since they knock off half of incoming damage. you'd still have to be out of block though to use this with earth. but fire and rage have basically the minimum defense, especially out of block, so normal shields would be shredded almost as fast as an unblocking fire tank or a rage tank right after rage mode ends without buffing their health.

i know that doesnt help at all in trying to find something worthwhile for tanks to use this mechanic. i do know a power reduction isnt it though.

Settled, as in "final revision" or "this is what we are testing now"? If it's settled as in "this is how we're doing it", then discussion over, I guess.

Words mean things. Please choose them with care.

That's not the point that he's trying to make with this though. A reduction in power cost is not something that Tanks and Healers or even Controllers will use WM for. Now, a buff to Restoration or HoTs for healers, Dom and Health for Tanks, Vit and PoT for Controllers. Those are the things that would make WM more beneficial for support roles.

i did misunderstand this. after seeing some videos, i just wanted to come back and raise my hand and acknowledge this part.

to add on to my last post....

after seeing some more videos, am understanding this right? if say im using staff, and use the one handed WM tap tap hold, id hit a power at the end of this to get the buff/benefit? if thats the case, i am more open to saying this could be useful for all roles. there are shorter combos in each tree that can be pulled off fairly quickly. now im back at the point of power reduction being just silly for tanks. it could really be something else more useful and worthwhile to risk using WM.

I agree with this and the logic behind what Kris was saying. Going along these lines, I feel like the intention of the support roles getting a power reduction is to take some of the "battery" feeling off of the trollers. This could easily be accomplished by allowing a properly executed combo to replenish a portion of power quicker than a normal weapon regen as opposed to a timed power reduction.

Situationally, I could see this as being more beneficial than a power reduction as it would give the controllers less "catch up" to replenish my bar. With the power reduction, I'm forced to use a power to receive the benefit which isn't really beneficial to the trollers in a power throttled situation.

I want it to be know that I would have preferred WM controller buffs to give power back, healer buffs to give health back, and tank buffs to increase defense/dominance. With that said, I recognize that change is an integral part of improving a game. I quoted Spytle because I believe this post provides something that many players are looking for...guidance. We have all leaned to play this game a specific way in order to maximize our success. Many of the requests we are making are consistent with the gameplay style we have become accustomed to playing. It is obvious that being successful with WM will require a new style of gameplay. Jens, what gameplay style did you and the developers envision when deciding on the current buffs? How would you play a controller, tank, healer, and dps with these new changes. Understanding your underlying rationale would go a long way in guiding players and perhaps reducing the disappointment many are experiencing.

Not sure if it was mentioned before ... but you're spot on with the last part... rather than power reduction cost, a damage defection buff would be more in keeping with the weapon notion and beneficial to any role

Combo completion actives a 'personal dampening field' that absorbs 80% damage for 4 seconds
and deflects a percentage of damage received back to the enemy.... amazon deflection style

Why buff something you have in abundance already - weapon mastery is a chance to add some bells a whistles...
I don't think the Power reduction cost is the right solution necessarily.... but buffing stats seem boring.
I think they should be looking at Home turf white mods and consumables for offensive beneficial effects that should happen for the combo.

Is this a done deal.... minds made up ...beating a dead horse thing now.... or is player input still valid?

I think what Krys means is that a temporary stat buff is more useful because it lasts longer and you can use it more strategically. Start a fight with a combo, go into your regular rotation enjoying the benefits of the buff and re-apply whenever you get a chance if you get a chance.
Some fights dont really give you a chance to pull of long combos, so it's tough to be thinking strategically as to when to attempt one, you use them when you can if you can. A power cost reduction while somewhat useful, cannot be used strategically when you're running out of power because in a hectic fight you won't have time to pull it off before you actually need your power to heal, recharge or shield up.

With a buff that lasts X amount of time, you will try to pull it off whenever you get a chance and know the benefit will apply no matter what's going on. With the power cost reduction, it's less useful the more power you have and when you have less power and are in need of the reduction, you probably won't have time to pull it off since as a support role you only get low in power in tough, hectic fights.

As a sorcery healer, power cost reduction is not very useful at all. Perhaps for other powersets it is, but I only go under half my power bar at boss fights and sometimes not even then.

When fighting bosses is the least opportune moment to think about pulling off a weapon master combo, so it would be more convenient to have a longer lasting effect that could benefit you even after the WM combo. That way if you see a window to pull it off, you know it will help you.

If you say that some WM combos are really fast, then wouldn't the time difference pigeon-hole people into always doing those same combos? This is something i don't understand, why don't they all take the same amount of time? You are normalizing the animation times for all powers and weapon master combos have clear disparities?

Free yourselves up, and start thinking about how this can change your current group dynamics if you change up the current standard. This system releases controllers from strict power battery roles. It makes tanks and healers do more damage. Try this with 2-2-2-2 group and watch what happens. As a tank I prefer being way more active: seeking counter opportunities, throw taunts and shields, all while doing various WM combos. Throwing out much more offense while performing your role's function is liberating.

Personally I'm super excited for it and can't wait to try it (I heal and control).

Holy crap spytle. Isn't it like 6am where your at?

anyways, I agree with a lot thats been said, and I think overall, some peopled point of contention isn't wm itself, but the benefits to certain powers. Of course reduced power cost will always help. Its good, as you said, for trollers as it reduces their stress and alliveates the vit penalty issue we face. But when you dive into support role powers, I think thats where it gets muddy. Ill only speak on the 1sr 9 powers since that what I have a good feel for, but here goes.

ice: I can see this working well for them. With their ability to stay mobile thanks to their shields, I can see some creativity coming from this.

Earth: I can see this maybe helping pet tanking, as 2 common moves, epicenter amd shards will do more damage and are cheaper, but those powers are already so cheap and spammable, the incentive to wm is small. As for aftershock tanking, from testing, you don't get any of thr wm perks using those powers, so this is pretty useless for that side

fire: I cam definetly see this helping a self heal loadout, but not a juggle one for the same reasons as the earth pet tank one

gadgets and mental: put these together because I think the payoff is the same. If u love to debuff then wm will be a godsend being able to do more damage cheaper. But if u blue bar heal, no incentive

hl: no incentive except cheaper recharge

sorcery and nature: no incentive

electricity: very useful. Makes power hog heals like arc lightning easier to use

I can go more in depth, but im on my phone so my patience for typing is limited but u get the idea. In support roles, there just isn't much of an incentive based on viable loadouts for these powers to even want to use a wm combo. So wm itself becomes situational, not the bailing of it.

I think some secondary support effects would greatly increase the payoff. I understand not wanting power creep, so I understand straying away from vit and heal buffs, but how about 100% control resistance for tanks for 6 secs after a wm. This helps squishier tanks stay alive as being able to stay where u want in a fight helps I stay alive. For trolls, increased debuff duration after a wm. And for heals, increased healing targets, I.e. if I use a heal thst normally affects 2 people, let it affect 4. This is in addition to the power reduction move and the damagr buff. Something I thought id throw out there